What about season 4 ???

[Hopeful Romantic]

My theory: You don't plan things like this. This is the kind of stuff that happens when your plans get derailed.

I liked this quote. You know, the problem with Enterprise under all regimes is this exactly. Coto had a whole season to determine what he wanted and flesh it out; he was only missing the last episode. So, he should've had a plan. I think the only episodes where the writers said, "Screw it!" were the Mirror Universe episodes that fell out of sync. (And they were worth it.) The fact Coto didn't plan and act says more about him as a head writer and my biggest beef with him ...

Actually, what I meant was, Coto, as the showrunner, probably did have a plan/vision for Season 4--part of a long-term vision for a long run of the show--but the looming cancellation bolluxed that up. When the first thing you get dropped in your lap is that "Zero Hour" space Nazi cliffhanger... Talk about a thankless task.

And there was the clearly truncated feel of so many episodes and storylines, commented on by many viewers. Things were wrapped up too quickly, too neatly, to make way for new arcs. To me, they were rushing to cram in as much as they could, around the Special Guest Stars and the TOS-ish shows, before they got the rug pulled out from under them. It just doesn't seem to me that the showrunner--any showrunner--should be hung in effigy for this frustrating, tragic, impossible situation.

Through the grapevine, I've heard that he "significantly" rewrote Reeves-Stevens. I can't help but wonder if his "rewrites" really made the episodes worse.

I'm afraid I can't comment on rumor and hearsay. I would have to look at the different drafts and assess their relative effectiveness. Also, there might have been changes requested by Berman/Braga, who, as executive producers, would have retained final say on all scripts for the season.

I thought Similitude was good, but not awesome. Coto wrote Bound so .... I thought Storm Front 1, 2, Home, Bound, Daedalus, Demons and elements of other shows stunk. The majority of the shows I didn't like from season 4 were written or heavily edited by Coto.

Eh, we all have our faves and not-so-faves. (BTW, Sussman wrote "Home" and LaZebnik & Bryant wrote "Daedalus.") But Sussman also wrote "Twilight" and "IaMD", and Coto wrote "Azati Prime" and "The Council."

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on Coto and his contributions to the series. "Similitude" and "Azati Prime," are among my favorite episodes, and although I find Season 4 a bit frustrating (mostly due to the extenuating circumstances), there are many episodes that I really enjoyed, and I found something to like about every show. If the series had survived, I think he and Sussman and the Reeves-Stevenses could have done some really great stuff.

 

[commodore64]

Actually, what I meant was, Coto, as the showrunner, probably did have a plan/vision for Season 4--part of a long-term vision for a long run of the show--but the looming cancellation bolluxed that up. When the first thing you get dropped in your lap is that "Zero Hour" space Nazi cliffhanger... Talk about a thankless task.

They didn't know until into season 4, I think around the production of Bound, that the show was canceled, so I disagree.

And yeah, Zero Hour was a bit of a curve ball, but ...? The issue with SF, besides being boring, was they wrapped up the entire premise of the series -- the TCW really, really badly. I wasn't a huge TCW fan, but ... you can't introduce it in show 1 (Broken Bow), tease the audience with it like puzzle pieces and then have it wrapped up like it was before the end of the series with such a huge thud. We don't even find out who Future Guy is!

I think Coto decided he didn't like things about the series from seasons 1 - 3 and decided to ignore them: T'Pol's drug addiction, Archer's airlock routine, TCW, etc. I think to be an extraordinary front runner and head writer, which is what I expect (high expectations!), he had to take what made Enterprise good (with everything that happened, even the stuff he personally didn't like) and then intertwine TOS elements as they became relevant.

And there was the clearly truncated feel of so many episodes and storylines, commented on by many viewers. Things were wrapped up too quickly, too neatly, to make way for new arcs. To me, they were rushing to cram in as much as they could, around the Special Guest Stars and the TOS-ish shows, before they got the rug pulled out from under them. It just doesn't seem to me that the showrunner--any showrunner--should be hung in effigy for this frustrating, tragic, impossible situation.

Again, that was Coto.

I don't think anyone should be hanged in effigy. I do feel badly for Braga who I think got the short stick from fans and feel Coto is overly praised for doing a mediocre job. Maybe that's why I take the stance I do.

Eh, we all have our faves and not-so-faves. (BTW, Sussman wrote "Home" and LaZebnik & Bryant wrote "Daedalus.") But Sussman also wrote "Twilight" and "IaMD", and Coto wrote "Azati Prime" and "The Council."

Oh, I know, I was answering Mach 5 on shows I thought stunk. I'm usually a fan of Sussman (I'm sure my Twilight love is legendary), but thought he did poorly with Home. (I guess I expected more out of him!) The thing I like about him is he seems to get TOS, which is probably why I'm such a hard critic on his depiction of Vulcan.

You're right -- Azati Prime was very good; it's one of my favs, too as is Council. But, imo Coto had more bombs than run away hits and I have to wonder if Braga as the head writer helped rewrite some of the ones that Coto did that were "good."

If the series had survived, I think he and Sussman and the Reeves-Stevenses could have done some really great stuff.

No doubt, but I wonder what they would've been up against with Coto at the helm. In my opinion, Coto watched a lot of TOS, but sometimes missed the main points that made it great: friendships, mysteries and neat stuff that seemed alien.

 

[Mach5]

I'm usually a fan of Sussman (I'm sure my Twilight love is legendary), but thought he did poorly with Home.

I was never really crazy about "Twilight," mainly because it showed my favorite character (Trip) as a stubborn idiot, and I was never really big on the idea that the universe was helpless without Archer.
"Home" on the other hand had many flaws, but T'les made that episode great for me, because she was the first Vulcan on the show who appeared truly open minded, almost from the start.

 

[angie]

Trip was stubborn in Twilight? I am no Trip fan and LOL everytime people mention the great Captain Trip of Twilight but stubborn idiot? Another reason to rewatch the best ep of Ent!

 

[Mach5]

Trip was stubborn in Twilight? I am no Trip fan and LOL everytime people mention the great Captain Trip of Twilight but stubborn idiot? Another reason to rewatch the best ep of Ent!

TUCKER: What’s the problem?
PHLOX: Your engineers won’t let us continue with the Captain’s treatment.
TUCKER: Those are my orders. Look, I’d do anything to help the Captain, but we’ve got bigger problems at the moment.
PHLOX: This maybe the only solution to your problems, Captain.
T'POL: Destroying these parasites is most likely the key to saving humanity, and Earth.
TUCKER: Earth’s gone.
PHLOX: This image was taken a few minutes ago. You can see the region where I eradicated the first cluster of parasites. It’s gone in this image, as well.
TUCKER: Doc.
PHLOX: This scan was taken over twelve years ago. The cluster has disappeared from all the scans I’ve taken over the last twelve years. It's as if it never existed at all
T'POL: By destroying the organisms in the present, we appear to have neutralised them in the past.
PHLOX: We know they’re from another spatial domain. Apparently, they also exist outside of time. If we can eliminate all of the parasites, it’s possible the Captain’s infection will never have occurred.
T'POL: History may be altered. Captain Archer will have remained in command of Enterprise. Our mission in the Expanse could have an entirely different outcome.
PHLOX: We only have to divert power for a few hours. I am certain I can complete the procedure in that time.
TUCKER: I’m sorry. We need all the power we’ve got for the weapons.
T'POL: If the Xindi are on their way there’s very little we can do to stop them..
TUCKER: Well, we can’t just run up the white flag.
HOSHI [OC]: Bridge to Captain Tucker. You'd better get up here, sir.
TUCKER: I’m on my way. We'll talk about this later.

Yep, stubborn idiot...

 

[JiNX-01]

Trip was stubborn in Twilight? I am no Trip fan and LOL everytime people mention the great Captain Trip of Twilight but stubborn idiot? Another reason to rewatch the best ep of Ent!

TUCKER: What’s the problem?
PHLOX: Your engineers won’t let us continue with the Captain’s treatment.
TUCKER: Those are my orders. Look, I’d do anything to help the Captain, but we’ve got bigger problems at the moment.
PHLOX: This maybe the only solution to your problems, Captain.
T'POL: Destroying these parasites is most likely the key to saving humanity, and Earth.
TUCKER: Earth’s gone.
PHLOX: This image was taken a few minutes ago. You can see the region where I eradicated the first cluster of parasites. It’s gone in this image, as well.
TUCKER: Doc.
PHLOX: This scan was taken over twelve years ago. The cluster has disappeared from all the scans I’ve taken over the last twelve years. It's as if it never existed at all
T'POL: By destroying the organisms in the present, we appear to have neutralised them in the past.
PHLOX: We know they’re from another spatial domain. Apparently, they also exist outside of time. If we can eliminate all of the parasites, it’s possible the Captain’s infection will never have occurred.
T'POL: History may be altered. Captain Archer will have remained in command of Enterprise. Our mission in the Expanse could have an entirely different outcome.
PHLOX: We only have to divert power for a few hours. I am certain I can complete the procedure in that time.
TUCKER: I’m sorry. We need all the power we’ve got for the weapons.
T'POL: If the Xindi are on their way there’s very little we can do to stop them..
TUCKER: Well, we can’t just run up the white flag.
HOSHI [OC]: Bridge to Captain Tucker. You'd better get up here, sir.
TUCKER: I’m on my way. We'll talk about this later.

Yep, stubborn idiot...

Yep, stubborn idiot who heard "divert power for a few hours" while having no idea how much time before the Xindi would arrive, weapons blazing...

 

[Captain X]

They made Loran a stubborn idiot too - I'm thinking B&B thought that was a qualification for command...

 

[Skywalker]

The real flaw in that episode (and in much of the rest of the show) was making it seem like Archer was the only person capable of leading Enterprise to success.

 

[Mach5]

The real flaw in that episode (and in much of the rest of the show) was making it seem like Archer was the only person capable of leading Enterprise to success.

Exactly (I said the same thing earlier, didn't I?)
That "All hail Archer, savior of the Universe!!" crap was really annoying at times.

 

[commodore64]

The real flaw in that episode (and in much of the rest of the show) was making it seem like Archer was the only person capable of leading Enterprise to success.

Exactly (I said the same thing earlier, didn't I?)
That "All hail Archer, savior of the Universe!!" crap was really annoying at times.

I think the entire show was built around that from the beginning. I'm not sure why people hate Archer as the hero, but ... it makes me wonder why they watched the show that continued to demonstrate: "only one man [Archer] can change the future." <-- T'Pol quote from the Andorian arc.

I liked Archer and thus enjoyed him as the hero.

 

[Captain X]

The real flaw in that episode (and in much of the rest of the show) was making it seem like Archer was the only person capable of leading Enterprise to success.

Exactly (I said the same thing earlier, didn't I?)
That "All hail Archer, savior of the Universe!!" crap was really annoying at times.

Archer! Ah-ah! Savior of the universe!

 

[Skywalker]

The real flaw in that episode (and in much of the rest of the show) was making it seem like Archer was the only person capable of leading Enterprise to success.

Exactly (I said the same thing earlier, didn't I?)
That "All hail Archer, savior of the Universe!!" crap was really annoying at times.

I think the entire show was built around that from the beginning. I'm not sure why people hate Archer as the hero, but ... it makes me wonder why they watched the show that continued to demonstrate: "only one man [Archer] can change the future." <-- T'Pol quote from the Andorian arc.

I liked Archer and thus enjoyed him as the hero.

I didn't mind Archer, I just think they went way overboard on playing up his importance. Perhaps if they'd done more showing and less telling why he was so great and fantastic and awesome and the greatest Federation hero ever, maybe people wouldn't be so annoyed with the undeserved over-glorification.

 

[Mach5]

I didn't mind Archer, I just think they went way overboard on playing up his importance. Perhaps if they'd done more showing and less telling why he was so great and fantastic and awesome and the greatest Federation hero ever, maybe people wouldn't be so annoyed with the undeserved over-glorification.

Agreed. Throughout the show we kept hearing how great and important he was, but most of the time, only thing we saw was him getting his ass kicked.

 

[commodore64]

He delivered the Klingon (Klang), blew up the Xindi weapon, befriended the Andorians, held Surak's katra and delivered it back to the Vulcans to help save them (from themselves), helped find the Aenar ... just to mention a few. They didn't tell us he did these things, he just did them.

 

[Captain X]

He got one guy home, somehow developed a friendship with one Andorian commander off screen between Shadows of P'Jem and that season 3 episode he showed up in, and was written to just happen to be the guy who was next to Surran (or whatever his name was) when he died. That's all contrivance and telling, not showing us how Archer is deserving of any kind of respect or somehow a big hero.

 

[darkwing_duck1]

Well, now that I look at it, more than 3 years later, I realize how precious 'season 4' really is to me. I think Manny Coto really poured his heart and soul into it (he was almost like a kid playing with his favorite toy, and willing to share it with other kids too ). Sure it had flaws (Daedalus sucked, not to mention that TATV Abomination), but the 'Vulcan arc' was amazing. 'Bound' was kinda dumb (way too childish IMO), but I remember enjoying it none the less.
Finally, 'Demons/Terra Prime' two parter - an amazing two hours of Star Trek, and a true ENT finale, period.
All in all, a great season.

Coto nor the Reeves/Stevenses wrote TATV...it was the Killer Bs all the way, baby...

 

[mic of orion]

Exactly (I said the same thing earlier, didn't I?)
That "All hail Archer, savior of the Universe!!" crap was really annoying at times.

I think the entire show was built around that from the beginning. I'm not sure why people hate Archer as the hero, but ... it makes me wonder why they watched the show that continued to demonstrate: "only one man [Archer] can change the future." <-- T'Pol quote from the Andorian arc.

I liked Archer and thus enjoyed him as the hero.

I didn't mind Archer, I just think they went way overboard on playing up his importance. Perhaps if they'd done more showing and less telling why he was so great and fantastic and awesome and the greatest Federation hero ever, maybe people wouldn't be so annoyed with the undeserved over-glorification.

I think it is same with every star trek captain ?

 

[Skywalker]

Is it bad that I don't even remember making that post?

 

[Hopeful Romantic]

^^ Understandable, considering this thread is over 2 years old.

If anyone has fresh thoughts, feel free to start a new thread. Time to let this creaky old thread rest in peace.