Wesley's service?

[JoeZhang]

So Wesley gets to the academy (where's he's demoted from being a commissioned ensign/Lieutenant*) and meets his new bunkmates. Does Wesley get to correct his instructors "Actually I was AT the battle of Worf 359!" on a regular basis.

Why would he really give a crap about red squadron who must see like kids to him (even though they are older) given he was endlessly put in live and death high stakes situations?

it's understandable from a real world perspective because of how we need Wesley to be different from the rest of the crew and go through the normal teen adventures but in-universe, he's a battle-hard experienced pro isn't it?





* I've seen a claim that in the german dubbing of TNG that when Wesley is made an full ensign, the dialogue actually makes him a lieutenant. Anyone able to confirm or deny this?

 

[Mojochi]

While being a prodigy intellect, Wesley has always been presented as socially underdeveloped imho, or at least comparably socially developed as other teens. I could see him wanting to fit in & being a blind little turd about it

 

[Makarov]

Realistically if the Enterprise is a highly coveted position, and everyone at the academy knew Wesley served on it and was friends with all the bridge crew, then Wesley would be swamped with classmates trying to get him to put a word in for them. And everyone would be looking up to him and not Locarno for leadership. Perhaps TNG humanity evolved past that though

Although I suppose some other classmates might have their own parents on other starships giving them experience just like Wesley.

 

[Timo]

* I've seen a claim that in the german dubbing of TNG that when Wesley is made an full ensign, the dialogue actually makes him a lieutenant. Anyone able to confirm or deny this?

Well, the German system of ranks has two words that might be applicable for the lowest officer rank: Fähnrich, which goes for officer-hopefuls before graduation (and carries the authority of Master Sergeant), and Leutnant, which is the graduated and commissioned rank and similar conceptually to the US ground forces Lieutenant 2nd Class. The above ranks for the ground forces become naval ranks simply by adding "zur See", "at sea".

And curiously enough, Harry Kim was typically dubbed Fähnrich while Wesley was Leutnant, even though the opposite might have been more appropriate. Also missed was the opportunity to add "zum All", "at space"!

(My native Finland likes to mix German and Russian influences in all things military, but our Vänrikki is the commissioned rank while the undergraduate hopeful with the Master Sergeant authority is simply dubbed the Officer Trainee. Hilarity typically ensues in Trek translations whenever rank has to be tackled.)

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Tosk]

German subs on the DVD, for what it's worth...

"Ihre Leistung übersteigen den Rang eines Fähnrichs ehrenhalber bei weitem. Darum beschloss ich, Sie in den Rang eines Lieutenants zu erheben mit allen dazugenhörigen Verantwortlichkeiten und Privilegien."

 

[Timo]

Yup, that'd be Lieutenant (2nd Class) by US terms. Only the US Navy does it differently, calling the Lieutenant (2nd Class) by the unusual term Ensign, which gives us the confusion at hand.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[bigglesworth]

IMHO, Wesley should have been swimming in confidence when he got to Starfleet Academy. Being a bridge officer on the Federation flagship, assisting in the defeat of the Borg, all the missions he served and the various worlds he visited, working under one of the most esteemed captains in Starfleet, plus being a genius to boot. Really the other cadets should have been worshiping him and the various Academy instructors probably being a bit jealous.

Now it's possible that Wes had a setback along the way that took him down a few pegs where he had to work hard to regain the trust of his instructors and made him try too hard to get into the good graces of Lorcano and Red Squad. But in all reality, with his service record and accomplishments (all at the age of 18 or so) Wes shouldn't have given two shites about Red Squad.

 

[c0rnedfr0g]

FWIW, it was Nog that shouldn't have cared about Red Squad. Wes shouldn't have cared about Nova Squadron. I don't know why the writers didn't just re-use Nova Squadron in DS9.

 

[bigglesworth]

FWIW, it was Nog that shouldn't have cared about Red Squad. Wes shouldn't have cared about Nova Squadron. I don't know why the writers didn't just re-use Nova Squadron in DS9.

Oops... yes you're right... how many super duper special cadet groups are there anyway?

 

[Nakita Akita]

IMHO, Wesley should have been swimming in confidence when he got to Starfleet Academy. Being a bridge officer on the Federation flagship, assisting in the defeat of the Borg, all the missions he served and the various worlds he visited, working under one of the most esteemed captains in Starfleet, plus being a genius to boot. Really the other cadets should have been worshiping him and the various Academy instructors probably being a bit jealous.

Now it's possible that Wes had a setback along the way that took him down a few pegs where he had to work hard to regain the trust of his instructors and made him try too hard to get into the good graces of Lorcano and Red Squad. But in all reality, with his service record and accomplishments (all at the age of 18 or so) Wes shouldn't have given two shites about Red Squad.

Possibly when he got into regular classes with others, he found that they were just as smart or smarter than him, that they simply didn't have the free ride he received via his mother and Picard's relationship.

Possibly he had to take classes like Classic American literature, 1700-1950 and he sucked at it and had to have a tutor!

Also he might not have had the apparent charisma given to him on the Enterprise with the overindulgent adults he was used to working around.
I think there are a lot of reasons he wouldn't have been so 'amazing' at the Academy.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Honestly, it doesn't make a great deal of sense to me that Wesley would need to attend the Academy at all, and even if he does placing him in the plebe year is stupid*. As of Final Mission he had just over three years experience as an officer (about 2 years 8 months as a (Provisional) Acting Ensign and a little under five months as a (Provisional) Ensign). This is made even worse if that's possible by The First Duty (set over a year later and about five and a half years after he was first made Acting Ensign) and reduced to farce by Journey's End (about a year after TFD, six and a half years after WNHGB and nearly three and a half years after Menage a Troi, so by rights he should have been up for promotion to JG (according to Data's averages from Datalore) not still sluming it as a cadet.

* NB: I would have been okay with him being placed as a senior (to allow essential examinations by impartial auditors) to facilitate him being posted to other starships.

 

[JoeZhang]

Possibly when he got into regular classes with others, he found that they were just as smart or smarter than him, that they simply didn't have the free ride he received via his mother and Picard's relationship.

Possibly he had to take classes like Classic American literature, 1700-1950 and he sucked at it and had to have a tutor!

Also he might not have had the apparent charisma given to him on the Enterprise with the overindulgent adults he was used to working around.
I think there are a lot of reasons he wouldn't have been so 'amazing' at the Academy.

For me - It's not really about his classes - it's like Shamrock points out - it's about life experience.

Wesley in some respects has the same problem as Riker (The two suffer from this problem more than others)- he is there to be a certain type of character and therefore he's increasingly unrealistic because that boy has seen some shit.

He's the Helm officer when Riker almost gives the order to try to warp ram the borg cube and sucks it up and gets on with it. It would be like having a character who served on the front lines being packed up to a training camp and being impressed because one of his class mates is handy with an air-rifle.

 

[Nakita Akita]

Honestly, it doesn't make a great deal of sense to me that Wesley would need to attend the Academy at all, and even if he does placing him in the plebe year is stupid*. As of Final Mission he had just over three years experience as an officer (about 2 years 8 months as a (Provisional) Acting Ensign and a little under five months as a (Provisional) Ensign). This is made even worse if that's possible by The First Duty (set over a year later and about five and a half years after he was first made Acting Ensign) and reduced to farce by Journey's End (about a year after TFD, six and a half years after WNHGB and nearly three and a half years after Menage a Troi, so by rights he should have been up for promotion to JG (according to Data's averages from Datalore) not still sluming it as a cadet.

* NB: I would have been okay with him being placed as a senior (to allow essential examinations by impartial auditors) to facilitate him being posted to other starships.

After the court martial one year in the academy was eliminated. ( whatever the terminology that they used)

I think going to the academy would legitimize his position. Also it would give him a more thurough education. ( otherwise how could he semi-misquote ancient literature to his crew)

But it would give him more ability to be in command. I was in the Army and worked with a lot if doctors and most didn't have any sort of command presence.
It would be like Barclay as Picard.
I think a full complete education would be necessary.
It's possible that he might proceeded through the ranks more rapidly with his previous experience though.

Also it got him off if the show

 

[c0rnedfr0g]

Also it got him off if the show

I used to be a big-time Wesley hater as well. But then I realized that he was only obnoxious in the early seasons, and I'd argue that the majority of TNG characters were obnoxious early on. Over time, Wes became rather likable to the point where it was sad to see him leave and fun to see him return here and there.

The problem with Wes though, is that after a few seasons, nobody was sure what to do with his character. Does he stay on the ship as the ever-aging Acting Ensign? Does he do the Academy On-Line and remain on the E-D (like apparently Nog did for much of his classwork)? Does he finally get shipped off to the Academy? If so, why? Maybe because NOT going would be detrimental to his ever achieving higher ranks and positions of authority? Or was Gene's vision that a brilliant career in Starfleet is not the be-all, end-all goal of 24th century living, and that Gene's Mini-Me was destined for greater things?

Honestly, if Wes had been aboard the Voyager (or if the E-D had been cut-off from Starfleet), it would've been easier to keep him around character-wise. He would just serve as a full Ensign and do his Academy learning through the Main Computer and the Holodecks.

 

[Mage]

Well, the German system of ranks has two words that might be applicable for the lowest officer rank: Fähnrich, which goes for officer-hopefuls before graduation (and carries the authority of Master Sergeant), and Leutnant, which is the graduated and commissioned rank and similar conceptually to the US ground forces Lieutenant 2nd Class. The above ranks for the ground forces become naval ranks simply by adding "zur See", "at sea".

And curiously enough, Harry Kim was typically dubbed Fähnrich while Wesley was Leutnant, even though the opposite might have been more appropriate. Also missed was the opportunity to add "zum All", "at space"!

(My native Finland likes to mix German and Russian influences in all things military, but our Vänrikki is the commissioned rank while the undergraduate hopeful with the Master Sergeant authority is simply dubbed the Officer Trainee. Hilarity typically ensues in Trek translations whenever rank has to be tackled.)

Timo Saloniemi

German subs on the DVD, for what it's worth...

"Ihre Leistung übersteigen den Rang eines Fähnrichs ehrenhalber bei weitem. Darum beschloss ich, Sie in den Rang eines Lieutenants zu erheben mit allen dazugenhörigen Verantwortlichkeiten und Privilegien."

Interestingly enough, Dutch translations use the word 'vaandrig' for ensign. It's the lowest officer's rank, and used for officers in training. It comes from the word vaandel, which means banner. The youngest officer would always carry the banner. Fahnrich and vaandrig are quite close to each other.

Another interesting note.... The rankinsignia for a vaandrig would be one 'dot'.

 

[Tosk]

I don't know why the writers didn't just re-use Nova Squadron in DS9.

I can imagine the death of a student and consequent cover-up put an unfixable dent in the image of Nova Squadron. Better to rebrand.

 

[Paul Weaver]

Possibly he had to take classes like Classic American literature, 1700-1950

Don't forget spoken Latin

 

[MacLeod]

I can imagine the death of a student and consequent cover-up put an unfixable dent in the image of Nova Squadron. Better to rebrand.

Better not to have "elite squadrons" the events of Nova squad pail when compared to say Red Squad.

 

[c0rnedfr0g]

TNG wasn't the same after Wesley left. I dunno, I can't quite explain it, but without Wes the show just seemed more run-of-the-mill.

 

[Nakita Akita]

I used to be a big-time Wesley hater as well. But then I realized that he was only obnoxious in the early seasons, and I'd argue that the majority of TNG characters were obnoxious early on. Over time, Wes became rather likable to the point where it was sad to see him leave and fun to see him return here and there.

The problem with Wes though, is that after a few seasons, nobody was sure what to do with his character. Does he stay on the ship as the ever-aging Acting Ensign? Does he do the Academy On-Line and remain on the E-D (like apparently Nog did for much of his classwork)? Does he finally get shipped off to the Academy? If so, why? Maybe because NOT going would be detrimental to his ever achieving higher ranks and positions of authority? Or was Gene's vision that a brilliant career in Starfleet is not the be-all, end-all goal of 24th century living, and that Gene's Mini-Me was destined for greater things?

Honestly, if Wes had been aboard the Voyager (or if the E-D had been cut-off from Starfleet), it would've been easier to keep him around character-wise. He would just serve as a full Ensign and do his Academy learning through the Main Computer and the Holodecks.

I didn't hate him.
I just got tired of have to see if the "save the day" coin toss was going to be Wesley or Data.
I liked the character. But I thought maybe a little more in the background would have been better.