Were we what was wrong with the movie?

[perigee]

Now that we've all pretty much settled into the film - either positive or negative -, I wonder if it's time to look at whether we sabotaged the film with our Trekkie-ness.

Here's what I mean.

Abrams did a lot of things his own way, but he bent over backwards not to completely alienate the old fans. Thus we ended up with time-travel, old Spock, Nero, speeches pointing out alternate universe instead of a replacement of Holy Canon, the begging of manlove for Kirk/Spock, the sidetrips into exploring TOS incidents, and on and on.

Had he not done so - had he completely done his own take on the show - we may have ended up with a very different film. No overpowered supership (perhaps), no old Spock pimping Kirk/Spock, no time wasted going through the whole Nero backstory and long-winded explanations about how this was not the original timeline (which was amusing, when you think about it - nobody seemed particularly put-out by the realization that they were essentially alternate versions of themselves.), no stranding Kirk and Scott on planet snowball, and, with no Nero, no special need to kick over Vulcan. No need to play Kobayashi Maru.

That leaves a lot of options open, a lot of time reclaimed for independent character development (more and more, the thing that pisses me off about the film is the way old Spock essentially replaced the need for Kirk and Spock to find their own peace with each other: "We're best buddies? Oh. OK..."), and all the plot points would have to have been sewn up by the new crew.

I placed this here, instead of in the film thread because this really is about us; whether or not our obsession with TOS and Abrams' desire to placate us made this a lesser film than it could have been. Even, in retrospect, in our own eyes.

 

[Patrickivan]

Abrams did not bend over backwards to not alienate the old fans. He very carefully put in elements recognizable as Star Trek, in a concerted effort to keep Star Trek alive, as per Paramount. If he bent over backwards, there would not have been any of this alternate timeline BS that he eased us into, future technology would not look like today's (and it did a lot in the movie), the Enterprise would look like the Enterprise (though with much much more detail), and it would have actually have been a prequel...

This film was and has been called a prequel. But it can't be a prequel because it takes place in an entirely different timeline and universe.

He could have made a true film about how Kirk got command of the Enterprise. A story with actual character development. But that's not what sells. What sells are action comic-book-esque flicks right now, and that's what we got.

Yet as a TOS fan, I thought it was a good movie- as it is if standing alone on it's own merits. Forget about everything or anything about what is known about Star Trek, and it's a decent movie.

Taken in to context with the known Star Trek universe, it's a piece of crap.

So, I'm willing to enjoy it on it's own, but have no desire to try to make it fit in the Star Trek universe.

But fans did nothing to this movie. The makers used their formula to make a good flick, and that's what they did. If fans truly had more influence, we would have gotten a movie that no doubt wouldn't have done so well.

And this should be in the Trek film thread...

 

[number6]

I have maintained that Trek's fandom has been the downfall of every incarnation of Trek since TWOK. Their persistant whine about everything that isn't in strict lockstep with their own preconceived ideas of what Trek "should" be has dogged every attempt to do any Star Trek.

They bitched about TMP
They bitched about TWOK
They bitched about TSFS
They bitched about TVH
They bitched about TFF
They bitched about TUC
They bitched about TNG
They bitched about GEN
They bitched about FC
They bitched about INS
They bitched about NEM
They bitched about DS9
They bitched about VOY
They bitched about ENT
And (surprise!) they bitched about this new film.

It doesn't matter what JJ Abrams has done, thought about doing, or could have done about the new film.

Trek's own fandom has stymied any attempt to do Star Trek and blinded them to the notion that there has been some great stories told post 1979.

Fortunately for the rest of us who enjoy Star Trek, TPTB have ignored Trek's "fans."

As well they should.

 

[Cakes488]

I have maintained that Trek's fandom has been the downfall of every incarnation of Trek since TWOK. Their persistant whine about everything that isn't in strict lockstep with their own preconceived ideas of what Trek "should" be has dogged every attempt to do any Star Trek.

They bitched about TMP
They bitched about TWOK
They bitched about TSFS
They bitched about TVH
They bitched about TFF
They bitched about TUC
They bitched about TNG
They bitched about GEN
They bitched about FC
They bitched about INS
They bitched about NEM
They bitched about DS9
They bitched about VOY
They bitched about ENT
And (surprise!) they bitched about this new film.

It doesn't matter what JJ Abrams has done, thought about doing, or could have done about the new film.

Trek's own fandom has stymied any attempt to do Star Trek and blinded them to the notion that there has been some great stories told post 1979.

Fortunately for the rest of us who enjoy Star Trek, TPTB have ignored Trek's "fans."

As well they should.

I think though that without this fandom there wouldn't of been any incarnations at all....AHA got you on that one (which I'm sure I didn't...I know you'll come roaring back ) LOL

 

[Ronald Held]

Without fandom, what movie would have been made, starting with TMP?
If he Abrams wrer more considerate of us, he would have told a different story which actually fit into the now Prime Universe.

 

[RyuRoots]

I can say with certainty that the worst part of any franchise is the fandom, not just Star Trek.

 

[number6]

I totally understand that without the fans who supported Trek all these years there wouldn't be all this good stuff, but there is sooooooo much baggage that goes along with it.

Fandom has become the psycho ex you still want to be friends with because the sex is pretty awesome, but is impossible to deal with the rest of the time.

As far as Abrams: I think he made a great film that has gotten people interested in checking out the franchise in a way we haven't seen for a good many years. He threw us diehards a few bones while carving a new path, which is exactly what Star Trek has needed to do for a long time.

 

[KeepOnTrekking]

ST XI, in my mind, is a fun adventure set an alternate universes with Old Spock visiting. I wouldn't mind a few more movies revisiting it. It's not any different than all those visits to the mirror universe in DS9. Would I prefer more stories in the prime universe? Yes. But right now with the state of the Trek franchise as it was before ST XI, it needs a popularity boost to renew interest in it. ST XI has, indeed, accomplished that.

 

[Lord Garth]

I have maintained that Trek's fandom has been the downfall of every incarnation of Trek since TWOK. Their persistant whine about everything that isn't in strict lockstep with their own preconceived ideas of what Trek "should" be has dogged every attempt to do any Star Trek. [...] Trek's own fandom has stymied any attempt to do Star Trek and blinded them to the notion that there has been some great stories told post 1979.

Star Trek didn't fall because Warped9 disapproved. And it sure didn't fall "since TWOK", no matter what anyone says. Star Trek's popularity only began to fall in the middle of the '90s but, even then, it took several years for the fall to reach crisis mode.

Star Trek "fell" because the second generation Trek's time had naturally passed. You can use "fans" as a scapegoat but the truth is most people, "normal" people, had lost interest over time. Star Trek ran on TV for 18 years straight. Just because people liked TNG didn't mean they automatically had to like DS9, VOY, and ENT. Doesn't mean they'll stay interested in every movie seuqel either. The rule of Diminishing Returns applies.

Sometimes things have to end in order for there to be a new beginning. Nemesis had to bomb in order for us to get Star Trek (2009).

If things had gone your way, this is how Star Trek would've unfolded from 2005 on:

2005: ST XI (fifth TNG movie)
2005-2006: ENT Season 5
2006-2007: ENT Season 6
2007-2008: ENT Season 7
2008: ST XII (first ENT movie)
2008-2009: Series VI Season 1
2009-2010: Series VI Season 2 (upcoming)

Star Trek (2009) is more profitable than a fifth TNG movie and a first ENT movie would be... combined.

As for television, if there's a new Star Trek series now, the general audience will be interested because Star Trek's been away from TV for a while and this new movie has them interested again. If things had gone your way, people would still be sick to death of Star Trek, wondering when it will finally end. They wouldn't miss Star Trek and they'd be taking it for granted.

Star Trek needed the time off and the change in creative hands. Now it seems fresh, exciting, and special again instead of old, stale, and never-ending.

 

[Lord Garth]

Abrams did a lot of things his own way, but he bent over backwards not to completely alienate the old fans. Thus we ended up with time-travel, old Spock, Nero, speeches pointing out alternate universe instead of a replacement of Holy Canon, the begging of manlove for Kirk/Spock, the sidetrips into exploring TOS incidents, and on and on.

I don't think any of those served as a detriment to Star Trek (2009). Initially, I wanted a clean reboot. I'd wanted one for years (since 2003). But the way they carried out the soft reboot in ST XI was very original, as I said in the ST XI forum.

A villian from an alternate future comes back and destroys the secondary protagonist's homeworld. It's bold, it's dramatic, and sets this Star Trek apart from the other Star Trek just as well.

Had he not done so - had he completely done his own take on the show - we may have ended up with a very different film.

A story that existed in a vaccum that may or may not have been better. There's no way to know.

No overpowered supership (perhaps)

This was going to a Big Space Action Movie no matter what. I think there still would've been an overpowered supership.

no old Spock pimping Kirk/Spock

I don't think having Spock Prime in the movie necessarily hurted anything, and he gave Kirk insight to Nero that Nero wouldn't have done himself. Unless Nero would've felt the need to explain everything to Kirk while he was trying to kill him. That's another cliche.

no time wasted going through the whole Nero backstory and long-winded explanations about how this was not the original timeline (which was amusing, when you think about it - nobody seemed particularly put-out by the realization that they were essentially alternate versions of themselves.)

I don't think that took a significant amount of time out of the movie and any new villain set up would've needed at least the same amount of explaining for their motivations anyway.

no stranding Kirk and Scott on planet snowball

Maybe.

with no Nero, no special need to kick over Vulcan.

Nero could've still been the villain, but with a different backstory. The Romulans and Vulcans used to be the same race, divisions are bitter, and Nero still might've wanted to blow up Vulcan. Otherwise, using Movie Mentality, he would've gone straight to just wanting to Blow Up Earth. It's too bad Vulcan was destroyed but it was a less obvious target than going for Earth straight away.

No need to play Kobayashi Maru.

Maybe, but is there anything inherently wrong with the Kobayashi Maru? Even if it were a clean reboot, it still would've been an origin story, we still would've seen Kirk's early life, and they still might have wanted to show how Kirk would've been as a Captain before he actually becomes one so the characters in the story and the audience in the theater would get a sense of what they were in for.

That leaves a lot of options open, a lot of time reclaimed for independent character development (more and more, the thing that pisses me off about the film is the way old Spock essentially replaced the need for Kirk and Spock to find their own peace with each other: "We're best buddies? Oh. OK..."), and all the plot points would have to have been sewn up by the new crew.

I'll give you that one.

Overall, I don't think having a connection to previous Star Trek was a problem with the movie. The only problem I have with the movie is how easily everyone got into their positions and it's not a big enough issue to detract from anything. The other thing is how it feels a little too much like the 21st Century in some Earth scenes but since all movies become dated eventually anyway (no matter when they're set), it's another item I'm willing to let slide.

I guess these two posts are a long-winded way of saying I don't think fans or continuity have hampered Star Trek at all. There, I've said it.

If you don't believe me, then check out the latest box-office results. For sure, the sequel will have a different type of story since it's not going to be an origin/reset story.

 

[tomalak301]

It's interesting. When I went to the film the first time, I had fun. I was with others who had fun, and we all agreed that it was a very nice evening out at the movies watching a film of a show that we all grew up and loved. Then we get to the internet and this board and most of the threads about pretty much anything have been mostly negative, especially in turn with the new movie. I'm sure if I met you guys and we went to the movies together, we would have had a great time, not matter what we thought about the film a month later. Anonymity on the internet is never a good thing I suppose but it is a necessary evil.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

I
They bitched...

That's a complete sentence. As Sarek said of Andorians, Trekkies don't argue for reasons. We simply argue.

 

[USS Mariner]

I
They bitched...

That's a complete sentence. As Sarek said of Andorians, Trekkies don't argue for reasons. We simply argue.

You do realize that you're included in that category, right?

Dennis doesn't act like an asshole just to prove a point. He's just an asshole.

As for the OP, we, or any "sect" of fandom weren't what was "wrong" with the film (if quality even makes a dent in a project's "success," given how much cash this thing is taking it ATM.) Speaking for myself, the writers and director couldn't make a film that had any more depth or intra-story logic than your typical sci-fi explodyfest, and in several spots, managed to under perform even Trek's previous flicks, many of which would have bankrupted the studio making it without the showing of the dedicated fanbase behind it.

Yes, they don't end up being a large segment of the initial ticket cost, but they almost always end up buying the merchandising from it, which is more than enough to justify the last ten shitfests we've had since 1979 (I may like TMP myself, but as a film, the last act is a convoluted, worthless mess that ruins an otherwise average-to-semi-intelligent presentation.) Most of the general audience who end up seeing it don't end up buying the expensive trinkets afterward, which is far more vital to an action/fantasy/adventure film's success, especially in recent years.

Until about late 2001 to early 2002, that was enough to keep the franchise going. However, after that, many far more interesting and creative IP's took the stage in both the television and motion picture playing fields, and TPTB behind Trek at that point, according to both fan, critic, and also production staff observation, was unwilling to alter or compete on any level with them. Because of that, only the fans, who have fragmented simply as a function of the number of spin-offs and the franchise's age, were really committed to supporting it in either arena. The general public, if they had any such interest in the themes or settings that Trek used, could simply watch much more recent, imaginative, and fresh properties to satisfy their needs.

Examples not only include shows like Firefly, but also things in other genres like Numb3rs, which is a crime drama that uses statistics and science to help solve crime, which is a great idea to attract the "nerd" demographic that is a key pillar of Trek's fanbase.

Now, as for Trek '09 (which can be differentiated from the previous version of the franchise simply because it's an intentional and dramatic departure that goes beyond biased semantics), the recent interest by non-fans can be explained as a function of many factors, including the healthy stretch of time between this film and the last Trek property; the new staff hired specifically for the new direction; an impressive, multi-faceted PR campaign; and a radically different outlook on the property by the new staff.

The fact that some of us don't like it is to be expected, and it isn't necessarily a reflection of our true "fannitude" or our devotion to the property or it's themes or ideas. Hell, I don't like it because I feel it's one of the most haphazardly written and directed films I've seen in my life, but I still call myself a Trekkie.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

I
They bitched...

That's a complete sentence. As Sarek said of Andorians, Trekkies don't argue for reasons. We simply argue.

You do realize that you're included in that category, right?

Hence the use of the word "we." It's a fairly common word, but you can look it up if need be.

Dennis doesn't act like an asshole just to prove a point. He's just an asshole.

Manners, child. Manners.

 

[USS Mariner]

That's a complete sentence. As Sarek said of Andorians, Trekkies don't argue for reasons. We simply argue.

You do realize that you're included in that category, right?

Hence the use of the word "we." It's a fairly common word, but you can look it up if need be.

Dennis doesn't act like an asshole just to prove a point. He's just an asshole.

Manners, child. Manners.

An asteism is still an insult, regardless of how rigidly one hews to conversational etiquette. I see no problem in highlighting something that you do purely to be obfuscatory in a discussion, even when you are more than qualified in intellect and experience to add to it.

In this context, my remark stands. You are an asshole, just for your own sake.

You've acted like this in almost every Trek-related thread with little more than a bare thread's connection to the new film since it was announced, and, to be frank, all of your Trek-related posts since then have been snide, insulting, and frankly pathetic given your talent as a thinker and a writer.

It's even more annoying to me, because I do look up to you in a variety of ways, and it's disheartening (to say the least) when you of all people can't put together much more than a single sentence without backhanding even those who only marginally disagree with your take on things.

If the "purists" on this board are being stubborn, you're just being a prick, but you don't even offer a bare-honest, heart-felt statement to justify your behavior, even if it happens to be baseless and purely emotional. I'm not going to keep pretending that you're just having fun at this point, because you've just quit participating in these discussions for anything more than cheap amusement. I'd like to think you're better than that.

If I've reached the wrong conclusion in any of this, I'd like to hear what you have to contribute. I can be wrong on occasion, and I'm entirely willing to be proved so now.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

You do take yourself seriously, that much is certain. Relax.

 

[Tribbles]

I can say with certainty that the worst part of any franchise is the fandom, not just Star Trek.

This.

(Except sometimes it's also my favorite part, too.)

 

[Anticitizen]

It's interesting. When I went to the film the first time, I had fun. I was with others who had fun, and we all agreed that it was a very nice evening out at the movies watching a film of a show that we all grew up and loved. Then we get to the internet and this board and most of the threads about pretty much anything have been mostly negative, especially in turn with the new movie. I'm sure if I met you guys and we went to the movies together, we would have had a great time, not matter what we thought about the film a month later. Anonymity on the internet is never a good thing I suppose but it is a necessary evil.

Fear not - take a closer look at the opinions around here, and you'll see that the vast majority liked the film.

It's just that threads saying 'I like it!' tend to be relatively devoid of content (save for repetitive praise) while the 'negative' threads are there to discuss plot holes/contrivances, specific grievances, etc, so they are more enduring and numerous. Then, the people that like the movie tend to drop in those threads and argue with the people who didn't like the film, because they seem to feel that it needs defending in some way - so the threads never die.

Alas, I fall in the 'negative' category I suppose. I enjoyed the hell out of watching the movie while in the theater - only raising the occasional eyebrow - but once home, I ruminated a little too much about the shaky plot and my appreciation for the film started to boil away.

Anyhow, if you want to bask in the overwhelming praise... start with page one of the 'Official Trek XI Grading and Discussion Thread', sticky-ed at the top of the Trek XI forum.

 

[Herkimer Jitty]

No, I wouldn't say us fans have sabotaged Star Trek itself.

We have in some ways sabotaged its reputation, though. Not on a big, huge, level, but it happened.

 

[Warped9]

Abrams did not bend over backwards to not alienate the old fans. He very carefully put in elements recognizable as Star Trek, in a concerted effort to keep Star Trek alive, as per Paramount.

No. He put in familiar references. He did not recapture any of the flavour of the original. He threw away any semblance of substance and nuance in favour of mindless caracitures and cliches. He mayn't have bent over backwards, but he and TPTB expected us to do so with our legs lifted high and ready to smile in exstatic gratitude.

This film will not age well. Familiarity with it over time will breed widening contempt. Guaranteed.

I'm not at all embarassed to say that the more I consider this the more I wish this film ill in the long term. I couldn't care less how many people drool over it now. It's a stain in the shadow of when Star Trek has been done far better and not just in TOS.