Were there other Enterprises between the NX-01 and the NCC-1701?

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Enterprise' started by Dukhat, Dec 17, 2022.

  1. Jack Wolfe

    Jack Wolfe Commodore Commodore

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    Or Starfleet brass deciding that it wouldn't be long before Archer got her so shot up that she'd be unsalvageable. Best to decommission Enterprise sooner than later and give Archer a desk to fly.
     
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  2. FederationHistorian

    FederationHistorian Commodore Commodore

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    In TNG, we know that the USS Enterprise, from the Constitution class Enterprise to the Ent-D, are featured with models. This this then later updated to include the Ent-E in the TNG movies. Every other Enterprise i.e. pre-Federation, are excluded. We also see a Constellation class ship in Picard’s ready room (not the Stargazer, but with the registry NCC-7100).

    In Pike's ready room, the NX-01 and the USS Essex are featured.

    Supposedly, only three survived of the first seven NX ships.

    There are at least sixteen NX ships that saw service.

    This is the NX refit in the 2021 calendar, so you can see what the intentions are of the creators.

    [​IMG]

    Also note that in Admiral Marcus's office in Into Darkness, he only had the NX-01 pre-refit in a line of historical flying vehicles. In a line.

    [​IMG]

    According to the novelverse, the refit has a crew complement of 132. Adding 49 crew to the ship.

    Meaning Archer lost at least 49 crew prior to the ship being mothballed in 2161. And the number could be as high as 54, as we don't know if T'Pol, Trip, Reed, Mayeather and Phlox were serving on other starships at the time and they were simply filling in on the way home.

    Interestingly enough, 54 is double the number 27 - the number of crew Archer lost during the Xindi mission.
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2024
  3. HotRod

    HotRod Commodore Commodore

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    None of this is canonical. We're dealing strictly within the canon. The only two ships we absolutely know were built were Enterprise and Columbia. I think it was Archer who said in an early episode that either 4 were planned to be built, or 4 more were planned to be built.
     
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  4. Dukhat

    Dukhat Admiral Admiral

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    If Picard was born in 2305, and the young version we see in PIC was, say, ten years old, then it was around 2315 that he was playing with this toy. So if we assume that the toy actually represents the NX-01 (which it would have been labeled, as it was an Eaglemoss model), and that the toy actually represents a refit that was done to the ship instead of the toymaker's artistic license, then the refit would have happened no later than 2315 or so. Puh-lenty of time for it to have been done after the events of TATV but before the earliest chronological depiction of the refit (154 years!) And if it had been done before 2161, Riker would have known that and would have incorporated the refit into his holodeck program. But he didn't.
     
  5. HotRod

    HotRod Commodore Commodore

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    But the question remains, why would they refit a decommissioned Starship?

    The only thing that makes the refit a real problem is the appearance of the standard configuration on some monitors. If we can ignore that, or come up with some creative workaround, it's not that much of an issue. Mostly thanks to us not seeing an exterior view of the ship. The montage at the end can easily be viewed as being outside the context of the episode and was simply showing the ship as we, the audience, had always seen her.

    Personal, I wish they hadn't included the refit as I've always preferred the ship as it was.

    Another thought has occurred to me. Why was the ship refit?

    It was implied in TATV that Warp 7 was a new thing for Starfleet. Reed even makes mention of the new "Warp 7 Beauties."

    That he mentioned their speed, I take that to mean it's a pretty big deal. So if warp 7 was a new thing for 2161, what was the point of the secondary hull added to the ship, supposedly between 2155 and 2161?

    Doug Drexler says it's supposed to contain a warp 7 engine, but that just doesn't really add up.
     
  6. Dukhat

    Dukhat Admiral Admiral

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    You mean other than making it a galactic cruise ship? ;)

    Why did they turn the Saratoga from TVH into the Saratoga from ‘Emissary?’ Because they could, I guess. Same thing here. There could be any number of reasons for the refit post-TATV. I personally like the idea of using decommissioned ships as testbeds for new technology, but it could be as simple as somebody buying the ship from Earth for their own personal collection and did their own thing to it.
     
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  7. Tuskin38

    Tuskin38 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    No, that's a common misconception.

    Drexler said he pitched the idea to have the NX-01 receive a refit in Season 5, but the show was cancelled before it could be approved or not. So we have no idea if it would have happened.

    He also didn't start designing the refit until after the show ended. So even if season 5 happened, and the idea was approved, it may not have even looked like what it does now, because it would have had to go through approvals from the higher ups.

    In the main line novel continuity version of events at least, IIRC The NX-01 was too damaged during the war so she was retired. That was probably to stick to canon that the NCC-1701 was apparently the first Federation starship named Enterprise.
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2024
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  8. Jack Wolfe

    Jack Wolfe Commodore Commodore

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    The freshly minted Starfleet got a contract for season 325 of "Pimp My Ride"?
     
  9. FederationHistorian

    FederationHistorian Commodore Commodore

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    No, he wouldn’t. As in addition to Riker not being an expert on 22nd century history, Data himself said that record keeping from that era is known to be spotty.

    At the end of the day, Riker is working with someone’s interpretation of events on the NX-01. Riker cannot be faulted for not knowing if the information is fragmented and incomplete, and for those that put the holoprogram together engaging in guesswork.

    Both “Living Witness” and “11:59” from VOY deals with the very subject of historical accuracy.

    For all we know, those pillars on the bridge are a clue that the program is spotty, and they somehow confused Enterprise with Columbia.
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2024
  10. Dukhat

    Dukhat Admiral Admiral

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    The NX-01 was in the Starfleet Museum when Riker was making his holoprogram, presumably with the secondary hull attached like what we saw in PIC. So he had visual evidence of how the ship looked. Ergo, he would have made the NX-01's displays look like the refit if the refit had been done pre-2161.

    And let's be brutally honest here about the 'inaccuracy' of Riker's program. Having seen 4 years of how everything actually looked in ENT, Riker's program can arguably be said to be 99.9% accurate to the period.

    You seem to be on a crusade to decanonize TATV, even with the flimsiest of evidence. Well, in your own personal head-canon, if you think the NX-01 having a secondary hull in 2401 suddenly makes TATV invalid, great. You're welcome to think that. But that's not an opinion that is shared by anyone actually producing the show.
     
  11. FederationHistorian

    FederationHistorian Commodore Commodore

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    So, Riker saw it at the Starfleet Museum between 2235 (his birth) and 2371 ("The Pegasus").

    Yet the refit, according to you, absolutely happened between 2310 and 2401.

    Seems to me that if the refit happened in the timeframe, as you are certain it happened in, then Riker knows what the ship looks like. But also ignores that he did not create the holoprogram that he used.

    Have you ever considered that most, if not all of Starfleet, actually liked the NX-01 the way it was before the refit? But keep the refit out of respect of the NX-01 crew.
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2024
  12. Dukhat

    Dukhat Admiral Admiral

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    Nope, never said that. I said based on young Picard having an Eaglemoss toy of the ship around 2315 (which @HotRod pointed out), meant that the refit had to have occurred at any time between 2161 and 2315.
     
  13. FederationHistorian

    FederationHistorian Commodore Commodore

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    Yes. Burt you were very adamant that the refit happened in 2401, despite there being evidence to the contrary.

    *But
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2024
  14. Dukhat

    Dukhat Admiral Admiral

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    No, I wasn't.
     
  15. FederationHistorian

    FederationHistorian Commodore Commodore

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    You make a lot of allusions that the refit did not happen in 2156 and that it must have happened much later i.e. 2400/2401.

    I'm not sure why. It must be a game for you.

    And I’m not on a mission to decanonize TATV. I’m on a mission to reframe TATV. A lot of issue fans have with the episode, from the lack of promotions for the whole crew and lack of evolution in their personal lives, to Trip & T'Pol's relationship abruptly ending despite it looking like it was about to strengthen after the loss of Elizabeth in the prior episode, to not one reference to the Romulans despite its proximity to a major formative event involving them, to the fact that no one seems to have been transferred to a different ship despite the level of experience the senior staff has that can be down be passed down to the inexperienced Starfleet personnel, to the indifference to Trip's supposed death by everyone but Archer and T'Pol...all these issues would go away overnight if the event was reframed as largely taking place in 2156. At the end of the original 5 year mission with Archer. With the holoprogram taking some liberties regarding the actual events that occurred.
     
  16. Dukhat

    Dukhat Admiral Admiral

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    My sarcasm about Royal Galactic Cruise Lines aside, here are the facts:

    1. We see displays of the NX-01 in TATV in 2161, and it’s the original configuration.

    2. We see young Picard playing with a toy of the NX-01 refit around 2315.

    3. We see the NX-01 refit in the Starfleet Museum in 2401.


    Ergo, based on what we see, the refit had to have occurred between 2161 and 2401. The toy, while not ironclad proof, can also be used as some kind of evidence that the refit also occurred earlier than 2401…2315 to be precise.

    Conclusion: The refit possibly happened, based on visual evidence, between 2161 and 2315. Do I really think the refit happened that late? No. It probably happened some years after the formation of the Federation; we just don’t have a set date for it. Either way, there is also no evidence that said refit now makes TATV invalid, because there is still no proof that the NX-01 was refit during or before 2161. And even if it was, it’s still not proof that the events we witnessed in TATV did not happen exactly as we saw them.

    I think I’ve said all there is to say about this subject. And as I have always said, you are welcome to have your own opinion about it. I am simply pointing out that there is not enough evidence to retcon TATV, at least as far as a secondary hull is concerned.
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2024
  17. HopefulRomantic

    HopefulRomantic Mom's little girl Moderator

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    @FederationHistorian... @Dukhat... Please. Let it go. You've hijacked this thread with your argument and now you're both just spamming it up, repeating your respective points of view over and over. No one else is bothering to post in this thread anymore.

    You don't agree. You will never agree. You have no interest in agreeing, as far as I can see. I entreat you both to resist your mutual Last-Word-itis, accept that you both have a right to your own viewpoints, agree to disagree, and just let it go. Go outside and listen to the birds sing. Hug a puppy. Watch a sunset.

    If either of you continue this spamming, I'll have to warn you. Please stop.
     
  18. FederationHistorian

    FederationHistorian Commodore Commodore

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    Sorry @HopefulRomantic. Matter is settled.

    I did suggest that there might have been a Daedalus-class Enterprise rechristened as the USS Essex. Its only a 1 year window (2160-2161), but its possible. And that the layouts may have been the same as an NX-class. I think the interiors were always going to be what we got in ENT, regardless as to what TPTB chose for the exterior. So worth taking into consideration.

    There is also the pic I posted, where the refit is designated Enterprise-class, mean that might be the name of the refit-class. Instead of Columbia-class.

    Its also possible that the XCV-330 came back into service in the late 22nd/early 23rd century and was upgraded from a Warp 2 engine to a Warp 5 engine. It would not be considered a Federation starship, but an UESPA starship, as it predates the Federation having been in service in the 2120s.

    There are many avenues worth exploring.
     
  19. evilchumlee

    evilchumlee Commander Red Shirt

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    My real question is... but why?

    I'm not really sure what this fascination is with cramming as many Enterprises in as possible. So there's just... not an Enterprise for 80 years or so.

    I don't think it's really all that crazy. While NX-01 is a big deal and obviously gets venerated later on, I don't think the name Enterprise REALLY becomes a big deal until 1701. Or possibly, exactly opposite of that, NX-01 was SUCH a big deal that the early Federation felt it to be inappropriate to name a new vessel Enterprise, taking several decades before they finally decided to go ahead and do it.

    Really digging it in, it may have even been unintentional for 1701 to be named Enterprise. PERHAPS, Starfleet decided to generally retire the name, in reverence of NX-01. So they don't name an individual ship Enterprise. When they plan out the Constitution's, someone decides to slap a naming convention on them, naming the first crop after old United States navy ships. Maybe not even being fully aware, they were assigning names to the planned ships, and "Enterprise" snuck in.

    Starfleet decided... it's been nearly a century. A new Enterprise is fine.
     
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  20. at Quark's

    at Quark's Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I suppose people just want to have tidy schemes to believe in. A similar fascination I've never understood is why everything should be connected (you know, like, Rasmussen was Archer's Roommate, V'ger and the Borg are connected in some way, Q and Trelane are related somehow, and so on).