Were the Talosians Really That Dangerous?

[StarryEyed]

In TOS The Menagerie, we learn that the Federation was so concerned with the prospect of Humans (or presumably, other Federation races) learning the secret of the Talosian's power of illusion, there was actually a death penalty for visiting Talos.

The concern was that if Humans attained this power, we would suffer the same fate as the Talosians: We would get so wrapped up in illusion, we would cease to care about the real world. We would lose our technological skills and even most of our survival skills. We would ultimately destroy ourselves.

Yet in the 24th century, we have a technological solution (holodecks) that achieve pretty much the same thing. We see that some people do develop "holo-addiction" but that it is not the norm. So did the Federation panic and overestimate the allure of illusion? Assuming opportunity for challenge is there, would people grow tired of paradise and yearn for real achievement?

 

[Orcus]

I think that they arrived at the conclusion that such a device would be self-regulating: the kinds of saddos who would fritter away their entire existence engaged in... - whatever it is that they do in there - would service mankind by improving the leftover gene pool...

 

[C.E. Evans]

I always thought it was more of a case that TALOSIANS ARE DANGEROUS! DO NOT GO TO TALOS IV! and declaring it a death penalty offense was the ultimate means to ensure that nobody goes there under any circumstances, even if their ship was in distress and in danger of blowing up...

IMO, there's no doubt that General Order Seven is an extreme policy and one worthy of being revised at a later point, but I think it was made a capital punishment offense to ensure that nobody else becomes a "guest" of the Talosians...

 

[xortex]

Maybe the power of illusion explains Kirk's whole journey and Starfleet was worried that contact with them would make it a) uncontrollable and b) distorted.

 

[UssGlenn]

I think the biggest difference between the holodeck and the Talosian's power is that the Talosians can project the illusions on to other people without them knowing. It's very difficult to do that with the holodeck (though it can be done with careful transporter subterfuge). You aren't so much protecting people from themselves but rather from others who would use the illusion for immoral purposes.

 

[Timo]

I'd think that the possibility of humans learning to use Talosian mind powers by themselves is minimal or nonexistent. At the very best, humans might use those powers indirectly, by blackmailing or torturing a Talosian to do their bidding.

The obvious greater danger there is that Talosians could conquer the universe if given a starship. Starfleet has to stop that from happening, at any cost. But the galaxy would be full of people wanting to exploit the above possibility of taking possession of Talosians and their powers, allowing them in turn to conquer the universe. How to keep these people away? A physical blockade would be unlikely to work: if implemented at practical blockading ranges, it would merely provide the Talosians with free starships! And the more Starfleet guards this place, the more the bad guys will be interested in it.

An ill-described death penalty for approaching the planet works a bit better: it doesn't tell the world exactly why Talos should be guarded and thus coveted, so villains attempting to reach the planet do not realize that success would guarantee them immunity from the consequences. So the deterrent has a chance of working: the risk seems to outweigh the gain, contrary to the reality of the situation.

The only one to suggest that there'd be danger of humans learning the powers and destroying themselves with them is the Talosian Keeper - a character not to be trusted under any circumstances. He may personally believe in such a thing, as he's the victim of such development himself, but he doesn't understand the bigger picture and cannot know how humans would view the issue. Talosians may be victims in their own eyes, but to mankind they are simply a threat force, demonstrably hostile in intent. And nothing relating to them can ever be trusted. After Pike filed his report on this adventure that exposed him to the Talosian mind powers, I'm sure Starfleet kept the Captain and his crew under very close surveillance for the next ten years or so, never truly trusting them with anything of strategic importance!

Of course, "The Menagerie" changed all that. For one thing, the bluff on the death penalty was called, so Starfleet had to take a new tack on the Talosian issue. For another, the ability of the Talosians to create the Mendez illusion and to summon a starship all the way from SB 11 proved that all the containment measures attempted so far had failed, and that the Talosians were already fully capable of conquering the universe. So there was no point in defending against them now: either their seeming benevolence (that is, failure to already conquer everything) was for real, or then they were invincible anyway (and the universe perhaps already under their thrall). NOW Starfleet could start worrying about lesser things, such as whether the acquisition of Talosian mind powers would make humans lazy.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[xortex]

The apple of reality and non reality. How does Pike know he ever left Talos IV? Just because apathy was their side effect it doesn't have to be ours.

 

[Myasishchev]

I'd think that the possibility of humans learning to use Talosian mind powers by themselves is minimal or nonexistent. At the very best, humans might use those powers indirectly, by blackmailing or torturing a Talosian to do their bidding.

The obvious greater danger there is that Talosians could conquer the universe if given a starship. Starfleet has to stop that from happening, at any cost. But the galaxy would be full of people wanting to exploit the above possibility of taking possession of Talosians and their powers, allowing them in turn to conquer the universe. How to keep these people away? A physical blockade would be unlikely to work: if implemented at practical blockading ranges, it would merely provide the Talosians with free starships! And the more Starfleet guards this place, the more the bad guys will be interested in it.

An ill-described death penalty for approaching the planet works a bit better: it doesn't tell the world exactly why Talos should be guarded and thus coveted, so villains attempting to reach the planet do not realize that success would guarantee them immunity from the consequences. So the deterrent has a chance of working: the risk seems to outweigh the gain, contrary to the reality of the situation.

The only one to suggest that there'd be danger of humans learning the powers and destroying themselves with them is the Talosian Keeper - a character not to be trusted under any circumstances. He may personally believe in such a thing, as he's the victim of such development himself, but he doesn't understand the bigger picture and cannot know how humans would view the issue. Talosians may be victims in their own eyes, but to mankind they are simply a threat force, demonstrably hostile in intent. And nothing relating to them can ever be trusted. After Pike filed his report on this adventure that exposed him to the Talosian mind powers, I'm sure Starfleet kept the Captain and his crew under very close surveillance for the next ten years or so, never truly trusting them with anything of strategic importance!

Of course, "The Menagerie" changed all that. For one thing, the bluff on the death penalty was called, so Starfleet had to take a new tack on the Talosian issue. For another, the ability of the Talosians to create the Mendez illusion and to summon a starship all the way from SB 11 proved that all the containment measures attempted so far had failed, and that the Talosians were already fully capable of conquering the universe. So there was no point in defending against them now: either their seeming benevolence (that is, failure to already conquer everything) was for real, or then they were invincible anyway (and the universe perhaps already under their thrall). NOW Starfleet could start worrying about lesser things, such as whether the acquisition of Talosian mind powers would make humans lazy.

Timo Saloniemi

Cool stuff, this is why I love Timo.

One nitpicky question: do we know for sure--been a while since I've seen Cage or Menagerie--that the Talosians' skills were biological in nature? I always sort of thought of them as technological.

And on an inapropos note, I wonder if The Cage might be a story worth revisiting in the new Trek film franchise? The underlying concept is one of the strongest and more daring sci-fi allegories Trek ever managed to create (we will destroy ourselves with illusion, television rots your brain, so go outside and get some sun, don't rely on fancy telepathy to arrange gangbangs, etc.). It's kind of unfortunate they kicked Pike upstairs already in Trek 11, since a remake of The Cage would be an excellent way to unload him from the captain's wheelchair.

 

[Timo]

One nitpicky question: do we know for sure--been a while since I've seen Cage or Menagerie--that the Talosians' skills were biological in nature? I always sort of thought of them as technological.

The only argument I have against them being technological is that the Talosians had failed to support seemingly much simpler types of tech. How could they keep their brain-manglers working if they couldn't run rebuild the basics of urban infrastructure on the (apparently no longer anywhere near lethal) surface?

It's kind of unfortunate they kicked Pike upstairs already in Trek 11, since a remake of The Cage would be an excellent way to unload him from the captain's wheelchair.

I guess that just ups the ante. In "The Cage", Pike might have considered giving it all up because he was depressed (and perhaps a bit of a failure as a Starfleet skipper, having lost people on a milk run). In the alternate timeline, he could be motivated by being a cripple - so him resisting the temptation would be all the more dramatic a turn. Especially since we know that in the first timeline, he did succumb exactly because his physical condition was so unbearable. And him being off the center chair in "The Menagerie" was no showstopper.

Assuming, of course, that Pike in the new timeline remained tied to that wheelchair even after the end credits rolled. Nothing at all suggested this, really, since the promotion ceremony took place so quickly after the other events of the movie that Kirk's face was still bruised! Pike could have been jogging around the bay before Kirk had his first landing party...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Luther Sloan]

Hell yes! The Talosians are dangerous!!! They put back together a girl by putting her butt up on her shoulder. Stupid idiots! I mean, don't they have butts, too?

To assume they don't have butts is pretty silly. What separates their legs from their backside then? Nothing? I mean where do they poop then? Out of their fingers or their mouths? How do they sit down? Are they standing all the time?

 

[SpyOne]

Yeah, what they said above.
The warning about Talos IV was not "Do not go there, it might make you superpowerful and evil", it was "Do not go there, the people there would like to put you in a zoo, and there is absolutely nothing we can do about that, so for god's sake don't give them access to a starship".
And the danger of the Talosian's powers compared to a holodeck is the ability to do it to you without your knowledge. While Moriarty managed to trick Data and Picard into believing that they had left the holodeck when they had not, as a rule one is aware when entering a holodeck simulation. But the Talosians can mess with your perceptions of the real world, making it seem that the self-destruct switch for your ship is just the lightswitch in your quarters, and that it is dark in there. Or worse.
Once you've accepted that someone is messing with your mind, how can you tell when they've stopped? Can Pike ever be sure that he left Talos IV? Maybe his return to Starfleet, his filing the report, his promotion ... maybe they were all part of an illusion.
I read a story, it was set in our present day but dealt with very sci-fi concepts, where the main character figures out that his memory has been tampered with: he isn't who he thinks he is, the past he remembers is fiction. When someone else asks him why that is such a big deal, he asks in reply: "When did they stop? How much of what I remember actually happened? What about figuring this out; this conversation? I remember them happening, but did they really?"

Talos IV is incredibly dangerous because the people there can make completely realistic, completely convincing illusions. Once they have been inside your mind, you can never be certain that what you see and hear going on around you is actually happening. Never.
The doubt alone could drive a man mad.

 

[boobatuba]

Yeah, what they said above.
The warning about Talos IV was not "Do not go there, it might make you superpowerful and evil", it was "Do not go there, the people there would like to put you in a zoo, and there is absolutely nothing we can do about that, so for god's sake don't give them access to a starship".

Wrong. Because...

It is well established in "The Menagerie" that the Talosians can use their power of illusion over vast distances...even causing Kirk to see an illusion of Commodore Mendez in the shuttlecraft as far away as Starbase Eleven.

So...

What's the point of General Order Seven? The Talosians are perfectly capable of bringing a starship to them using the power of illusion. Ordering Starfleets vessels to stay away is irrelevant to any "threat" the Talosians pose.

Therefore...

General Order Seven is enforced to keep unscrupulous members of Starfleet away from the Talosians to keep STARFLEET from gaining the powers of illusion for themselves.

 

[Timo]

General Order Seven existed prior to "The Menagerie". After the events of that episode, GO7 was apparently abandoned, as its measures were indeed found to be futile. In "Turnabout Intruder", it's General Order Four that carries the death penalty, presumably for some other offense.

Which only makes sense. Situations like this would no doubt crop up every now and then, and Starfleet would have to take temporary extreme measures to contain a potential disaster. More permanent solutions would hopefully soon be found.

All of Starfleet's General Orders probably carry the provision of death penalty; in Pike's time, it was activated for GO7, which in all probability is a general order about planetary quarantines and simply has a suitable sub-clause for the Talos IV case. An order about Talos IV specifically doesn't sound "general" to me, and certainly shouldn't be the seventh general order in Starfleet's books - but more like the 237th. In contrast, a general order about quarantines could easily be among the more important ones, and warrant the seventh place...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[boobatuba]

General Order Seven existed prior to "The Menagerie". After the events of that episode, GO7 was apparently abandoned, as its measures were indeed found to be futile. In "Turnabout Intruder", it's General Order Four that carries the death penalty, presumably for some other offense.

Nice catch, Timo. In "The Menagerie" Uhura reads the orders from Starbase Eleven stating that GO7 is "suspended" for the Spock incident, but in the later episode "Turnabout Intruder" Sulu and Chekov explain that the death penalty is forbidden except for GO4. It does appear that at some time between those episodes GO7 is abolished or at least reduced in punishment.

Or it could just be another screw up that wasn't caught at the time. Maybe the Chekov line should have said GO7?

As to GO7 being "general"...doesn't seem likely from these lines in "The Menagerie":

KIRK: (reading) For eyes of Starfleet Command only.
MENDEZ: Oh, I'm certifying I ordered you to read it. Know anything at all about this planet?
KIRK: What every ship Captain knows. General Order 7, no vessel under any condition, emergency or otherwise, is to visit Talos Four.
MENDEZ: And to do so is the only death penalty left on our books. Only Fleet Command knows why. Not even this file explains that. (unlocks the magnetic strip) But it does name the only Earth ship that ever visited the planet.

Seems pretty specific to that planet. That dialogue also refutes the existence of a GO4 punishable by death.

I vote screw up.

 

[Timo]

What in the quotes makes GO7 specific to Talos IV? It only says that the Talos blockade falls under GO7. Quite possibly so do two thousand other little details like that.

Similarly, we have never heard the full wording of the Prime Directive. This quote from "Bread and Circuses" should in no circumstances be mistaken for full wording, or even for particularly descriptive wording - it merely contains the bits applicable to the specific situation of that particular adventure.

Spock: "Then the Prime Directive is in full force, Captain?"
Kirk: "No identification of self or mission. No interference with the social development of said planet."
MCoy: "No references to space, or the fact that there are other worlds, or more advanced civilisations."
Kirk: "Let's go"

Timo Saloniemi

 

[xortex]

It's not a screw up. It just means GO7 was reduced and GO4 was instated in the meantime.

 

[T'Girl]

.

KIRK: General Order 7, no vessel under any condition, emergency or otherwise, is to visit Talos Four.

MENDEZ: And to do so is the only death penalty left on our books. Only Fleet Command knows why. Not even this file explains that.
.

Let us monkey with the language a little bit.

.
KIRK: General Order 7 -- No vessel under any condition (emergency or otherwise) is to visit any planet on the proscribed list (which include Talos Four), unless the prohibition is suspended.

MENDEZ: General orders are the only death penalties left on our books. Only Fleet Command knows why Talos Four is on the proscribed list, not even this file explains that.
.

The threat of the death penalty may be what keeps ships (civilian and otherwise) away from all planets protected by the prime directive. The prime directive is a general order. In order to keep ships away from Talos Four, it was added to the list. Talos Four (it would seem) lacked FTL ships, so adding it to the proscribed list would have been legal under the prime directive. Commodore Mendez's statement was that there was no explanation as to why it was on the list. Suggesting the reason that other planets are on the proscribed list is explained.]

The death penalty might be the maximum possible penalty. With a lesser penalty being the standard, in America some States have the death penalty, but it's rarely used.

UHURA [OC]: Message from Starbase Eleven, sir. Received images from Talos Four. In view of historic importance of Captain Pike in space exploration,

General Order Seven prohibiting contact ( in this case Talos Four ) is suspended this occasion.

No action contemplated against Spock. Proceed as you think best. Signed, Mendez, J.I., Commodore, Starbase Eleven.

 

[boobatuba]

Meh. Logical theories all around.

I will point out, though, that if Starfleet keeps changing punishments for their General Orders it's going to be difficult on starship personnel and folks out on the frontier to keep up!

 

[Myasishchev]

My favorite is General Order 24.

I always liked how an antimatter genocide could be unilaterally unleashed in peacetime by the equivalent of an O-6.

I wonder if there's a penalty (death penalty?) for refusal to carry it out, if it's later determined by court martial to have been warranted!

 

[SeerSGB]

MENDEZ: And to do so is the only death penalty left on our books. Only Fleet Command knows why. Not even this file explains that

That line stands out for the fact that it puts a big-ol-question-mark on the events we see in "The Menagrie" and "The Cage" (to a less extent). Are we seeing what the real danger is, or was there something Pike saw, or heard, or some telepathic "leak" that made their illusion power look like piss in the ocean next to what they can really do if they were allowed to rebuild.