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Wealth discrepancy and capitalism...

infinix

Fleet Captain
Fleet Captain
Ask any employee of a large 'American' corporation who has not received more than a pittance of a raise in 3-4 years and who has many former co-workers who have been laid off and are now losing their homes to offshoring...while the big guys at the top pay themselves massive bonuses because of all the money they 'saved'...on what was already a profitable company that actually used to employ more Americans than Indians.

Those guys don't care one bit about America or Americans. They care only about lining their own pockets. And it doesn't matter at whose expense. They don't even care if America itself goes down the toilet, as long as they can buy that 5th multi-million dollar home.

This issue was raised by PKTrekgirl in the "US's biggest problem" thread. But I feel that this deserves its own thread since this isn't simply a problem in the US. This is a problem that exists all over the world.

I work for a Dow 30 company who's stock price has jumped almost 90% in the last 3 years while my wages has gone up 3% each year. I recently met a 70 year old woman living on a 600 acre farm who inherited a family fortune worth about $10 Billion. That kind of wealth is unimaginable to the average middle class. Even if the middle class income level is at $100,000 (which it is not) her net worth would equal 1,000,000 middle class families. Hell, there are about 70 countries' GDP is less than that. She has two other siblings who inherited equal amounts.

But what are our options? As an ordinary working stiff, I don't see a way. We live in a capitalist society where majority of the wealth has already been so concentrated that it will almost never be disbursed to the general public. I could start my own business, but so many small businesses fail that I am more likely to end up broke.

Are we going storm the wealthy's estates and demand them to let go of their wealth? Wouldn't work because we would simply be arrested.

Are we going to elect politicians who will enact legislature to increase wages dramatically? Wouldn't work either because the price of everything we buy would go up by an even greater margin. Besides, US companies would be even less competitive globally.

Are we going to start a revolution?

Realistically, what are our options?
 
Your post seems to be based on the assumption that capitalism is bad and makes a few people rich, while making everyone else poor. That's not exactly true. Sure, some people get rich, but that happens in any economic situation--it's just a difference in who gets rich and how they get rich. Capitalism generally results in more rich people, however.

Capitalism is actually much better than any other economic system at lifting people out of poverty. I heard a report about the recent census data the other day. Something like 42% of the people who were below the poverty line 10 years ago are no longer living in poverty. That's amazing. 42% of the poor have left the ranks of the poor in just 10 years. Of course, other who weren't below the poverty level are now. These numbers are not extraordinarily, either. In capitalism, there will always be poor people, but most people don't stay poor.
 
Your post seems to be based on the assumption that capitalism is bad and makes a few people rich, while making everyone else poor. That's not exactly true. Sure, some people get rich, but that happens in any economic situation--it's just a difference in who gets rich and how they get rich. Capitalism generally results in more rich people, however.

Rich and poor is a relative, isn't it? Obviously a family could get by on $50,000 annual income, but they would be living from pay-check to pay-check and wouldn't achieve any real wealth. I think the system is broken when so much wealth is concentrated on so few people.

Capitalism is actually much better than any other economic system at lifting people out of poverty. I heard a report about the recent census data the other day. Something like 42% of the people who were below the poverty line 10 years ago are no longer living in poverty. That's amazing. 42% of the poor have left the ranks of the poor in just 10 years. Of course, other who weren't below the poverty level are now. These numbers are not extraordinarily, either. In capitalism, there will always be poor people, but most people don't stay poor.

You are going to have to actually cite that study. Back in 2005, 13.5% of the US population was living in poverty. (link 1). Unemployment was at 5% at 2005. (link 2). As of March, 2011, the unemployment rate was at 8.9%. (link 3)

Are you suggesting that people living in poverty decreased while unemployment almost doubled?
 
The system may be 'broken', in the sense that you don't like it, and I do sympathise with revolutionary talk - the fact is, there is no other system to replace it with. People are motivated by profit. That is the reality.
 
The system may be 'broken', in the sense that you don't like it, and I do sympathise with revolutionary talk - the fact is, there is no other system to replace it with. People are motivated by profit. That is the reality.

I would dare say that none of the middle class like what is going on, and all of those who are receiving minimum wage or were laid off absolutely hate the system as it is.

There are so many tax loop holes for the corporations and the richest amongs us to exploit that some are effectively paying next to zero or absolutely zero income tax. Look at GE. Look at the income statement. In 2010, they effectively paid zero taxes on a net income of $13 Billion. In 2009, they RECEIVED tax credits, meaning that not only did GE not pay taxes on a net income of $9 Billion, they received $1.15 Billion in tax credits from the government. All the while, GE is hiring two employees abroad for every one employee domestically.

Now tell me you don't think this system is absolutely broken.
 
Kill the rich and give to the rest, just like Robin Hood, but now with guns.

Killing them is too extreme. Raising their taxes to the point where the rest of us don't pay any would be good enough. We all know that the real reason for taxes is so the rich can have one more carribean cruise a year or whatever.

If that doesn't work, send the rich to prison.
 
The economy is not a zero-sum game with a fixed pie. Consequently, I have never supported any sort of draconian redistribution of wealth by the government.

I won't deny there are huge problems with our tax structure, one of which was pointed out by infinix... but you can't blame corporations for that. The government makes the rules... and if the rules were simple instead of convoluted, there wouldn't be "tax credits" of any kind for anybody.

Raping the rich isn't the solution to those problems, a clear and fair tax structure is... and if that doesn't appease your desire for schadenfreude, the world offers several alternatives to capitalism.
 
I am a fan of The Fair Tax Book. The basic idea is that there will be a very low flat tax and then the only other form of tax would be consumption based. The more you buy, the more taxes you pay.
 
I won't deny there are huge problems with our tax structure, one of which was pointed out by infinix... but you can't blame corporations for that. .


The government is being paid off!

It's why pot is illegal, it's why Four Loko got ban, it's why you aren't supposed to call "Sweet Herb" sweet, it's why we don't have bullet control, or health care, and use oil for everything!

I love this story...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_thecutline/nightly-news-stays-mum-on-ges-0-tax-bill

The president of the company should be in jail.
 
So no one buys anything, and the economy dies even more. Yeah that seems like a great idea.

No one buys anything? I guess people suddenly don't need houses, cars, gas, TVs, computers, cloths, desks, chairs, soaps, tooth brushes, food, etc. etc.

Everyone will just move to the middle of nowhere and live like the Amish?
 
I am a fan of The Fair Tax Book. The basic idea is that there will be a very low flat tax and then the only other form of tax would be consumption based. The more you buy, the more taxes you pay.

I thought from the starting post that you didn't like capitalism? This is the most capitalist system imaginable. Think about it.



Personally, capitalism has treated me well enough so far, touch wood, so long may it continue. I will never be a billionaire, but so what, really?
 
I am a fan of The Fair Tax Book. The basic idea is that there will be a very low flat tax and then the only other form of tax would be consumption based. The more you buy, the more taxes you pay.

I thought from the starting post that you didn't like capitalism? This is the most capitalist system imaginable. Think about it.

Personally, capitalism has treated me well enough so far, touch wood, so long may it continue. I will never be a billionaire, but so what, really?

The Fairtax post was addressing Mr. B's post about tax issues. Also, I'm not against capitalism. I'm against people who abuse the hell out of the system, gets rich, and then continues to abuse the typical working stiff.

I'm also not pro-union because I worked in a unionized work place before. Basically all productivity and employee initiative is drained from the company since nobody is promoted or recognized or even paid based on performance.
 
Also, I'm not against capitalism. I'm against people who abuse the hell out of the system, gets rich, and then continues to abuse the typical working stiff.

Capitalism in its pure form inherently rewards this behaviour. Capital generates wealth, which in turn results in more concentration of wealth. Average living standards are driven up for the vast majority of the entire population, but wealth increasingly concentrates in the wealthiest decile. Those below have more purchasing power than before in absolute terms, but can still feel poorer ("abused") due to increasing relative differentials to the richest. That's how pure capitalism functions.

Most wealthy countries (including the USA) do not use pure capitalism, but rather a heavily regulated form that moderates - but does not eliminate - this process, and adds in at least a safety net component for the poorest. Most arguments between the left and right in most of these countries are actually pretty modest in the grand scheme of things.
 
Your post seems to be based on the assumption that capitalism is bad and makes a few people rich, while making everyone else poor. That's not exactly true. Sure, some people get rich, but that happens in any economic situation--it's just a difference in who gets rich and how they get rich. Capitalism generally results in more rich people, however.
And even more poor people.

Capitalism is actually much better than any other economic system at lifting people out of poverty.
Actually a hybrid system with elements of both capitalism and socialism does a far better job of lifting people out of poverty than any straight capitalist system ever could.


I heard a report about the recent census data the other day. Something like 42% of the people who were below the poverty line 10 years ago are no longer living in poverty. That's amazing. 42% of the poor have left the ranks of the poor in just 10 years. Of course, other who weren't below the poverty level are now. These numbers are not extraordinarily, either.
There are more people in poverty today than there was 10 years ago, not less.

In capitalism, there will always be poor people, but most people don't stay poor.
Not before the social safety nets were put in place.
 
Rich and poor is a relative, isn't it? Obviously a family could get by on $50,000 annual income, but they would be living from pay-check to pay-check and wouldn't achieve any real wealth. I think the system is broken when so much wealth is concentrated on so few people.
A family certainly can get by on $50K/year. My family of 7 (soon to be 8) gets by on less than that, and I even own a house on 1/2 acre. There isn't any extra, but we get by just fine.

On a related note, whenever one is talking about poverty, what is usually missing is the location factor. Government guidelines on poverty need a location-based component. A family earning $50K/year in the middle of Nebraska has a nice house, plenty of food, 2 cars and their kids play all the sports they want, while the same family earning $50K/year in San Francisco is living in a cardboard box and stealing dog food.
Capitalism is actually much better than any other economic system at lifting people out of poverty. I heard a report about the recent census data the other day. Something like 42% of the people who were below the poverty line 10 years ago are no longer living in poverty. That's amazing. 42% of the poor have left the ranks of the poor in just 10 years. Of course, other who weren't below the poverty level are now. These numbers are not extraordinarily, either. In capitalism, there will always be poor people, but most people don't stay poor.

You are going to have to actually cite that study. Back in 2005, 13.5% of the US population was living in poverty. (link 1). Unemployment was at 5% at 2005. (link 2). As of March, 2011, the unemployment rate was at 8.9%. (link 3)

Are you suggesting that people living in poverty decreased while unemployment almost doubled?
The data is there in the Census Bureau link you posted. Here are a couple of articles about it:
link
link
Looking up the actual data shows that what I said about it wasn't quite accurate. Apparently, the time frame was 3 years, not 10 years. In a 36-month study, 42% of those in poverty at the beginning were no longer in poverty at the end. In fact, the average time someone is below the poverty line is only a few months. In that study, only 3% remained poor for the entire 36 months.

The take-home message is that most people don't stay poor. People go in and out of poverty all the time, and there is only a small number of people who are chronically poor. Of course, those numbers have a lot to do with the calculations to determine poverty, but the point remains that capitalism gives most people the ability to get out of poverty. With that, however comes the ability to fall into poverty.

The economy is not a zero-sum game with a fixed pie. Consequently, I have never supported any sort of draconian redistribution of wealth by the government.

I won't deny there are huge problems with our tax structure, one of which was pointed out by infinix... but you can't blame corporations for that. The government makes the rules... and if the rules were simple instead of convoluted, there wouldn't be "tax credits" of any kind for anybody.

Raping the rich isn't the solution to those problems, a clear and fair tax structure is... and if that doesn't appease your desire for schadenfreude, the world offers several alternatives to capitalism.
Yes, the tax structure needs a major reform. If I were in charge, I would throw out most or all of the 65,000 page tax code and start over.
I am a fan of The Fair Tax Book. The basic idea is that there will be a very low flat tax and then the only other form of tax would be consumption based. The more you buy, the more taxes you pay.
Sounds like a good idea worth considering. Is that related to the Fair Tax proposal? The idea of the Fair Tax is to replace all federal tax with a 23% consumption tax on new goods. Every family would get a "prebate" which would cover the tax a family living at the poverty level would pay. So essentially, everyone pays tax only on their spending above the poverty level.
 
Your post seems to be based on the assumption that capitalism is bad and makes a few people rich, while making everyone else poor. That's not exactly true. Sure, some people get rich, but that happens in any economic situation--it's just a difference in who gets rich and how they get rich. Capitalism generally results in more rich people, however.
And even more poor people.

Capitalism is actually much better than any other economic system at lifting people out of poverty.
Actually a hybrid system with elements of both capitalism and socialism does a far better job of lifting people out of poverty than any straight capitalist system ever could.


I heard a report about the recent census data the other day. Something like 42% of the people who were below the poverty line 10 years ago are no longer living in poverty. That's amazing. 42% of the poor have left the ranks of the poor in just 10 years. Of course, other who weren't below the poverty level are now. These numbers are not extraordinarily, either.
There are more people in poverty today than there was 10 years ago, not less.

In capitalism, there will always be poor people, but most people don't stay poor.
Not before the social safety nets were put in place.
My statements are based on data from the Census Bureau, where do you get your data?
 
Sounds like a good idea worth considering. Is that related to the Fair Tax proposal? The idea of the Fair Tax is to replace all federal tax with a 23% consumption tax on new goods. Every family would get a "prebate" which would cover the tax a family living at the poverty level would pay. So essentially, everyone pays tax only on their spending above the poverty level.

One and the same. The more I read about it, the more I like the idea. But this legislature is bound to have obstacles from every side. Can you imagine cutting down the IRS to basically nothing? Can you imagine the backlash when the corporations can no longer exploit tax code loop holes?
 
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