Weakest Season 3 Episode

[Middleman]

For me it's a toss-up between Extinction and Twilight.

 

[eepruls]

How so?

"If Archer fails, humanity will be destroyed." was the part I've found ridiculous. Twilight suggested that Humanity was utterly helpless without one single captain (Archer) and it portrayed Captain Tucker as a stubborn, borderline-incompetent dick.
The Archer/T'Pol hint I had absolutely no trouble with, since the timeline in which it might have (we don't really know if it did) happened was so grim and screwed up.

One thing that did bother me though was T'Pol saying that their relationship evolved. While her regard for him may have (and would have in given circumstances) evolved, it takes two for relationship to progress, and Archer's condition made that completely impossible. In fact, the life in which she had to explain everything over and over again every day seemed like a pretty fair imitation of hell to me (and reminds me of "The Notebook" which is, in every aspect, a ridiculously crappy movie).
Overall, the ep was not bad, but as a Star Trek episode, it was pretty mediocre.

I have to disagree with a few things you mentioned. At this point in history, Archer was on the only ship that could take out the weapon so of course everything relied on him. He was the captain and would be the one making the decisions. The rest of the crew didn't really have any command experience (even Tucker who was Chief Engineer) so it's not so crazy to assume that without Archer their mission would fail. It's not like the 24th century where there are lots of ships, lots of captains, and experienced crews with other capable commanders (Riker, Data, for example).

Tucker was focused on the present and trying to save the people who were left. I never thought he was a subborn dick as you say. Years of slow travel to a neighbouring star system and seeing your planet destroyed will make you a little different methinks!

With regards to Archer and T'Pol's relationship evolving, that doesn't necessarily mean they are sleeping with one another or something. A friendship can evolve too. I have had acquaintances that have become very close friends to the point of almost being like family. The fact that she's caring for him as his nurse and has come to understand him and humanity in a different and unique way from before could be the evolution she refers to. Archer understands that she is caring for him and is different than he remembers (in a good way).

What you consider to be hell (having to tell someone the same things everyday) is similar to what the families of Alzheimer or Demetia patients go through. You keep telling them because you care for them and want them to retain their dignity. It's not hell when it's a friend, spouse, or other close family member.

I agree with GodBen when he said we know that everything is going to turn out okay. In that sense, we know we will never have the Earth destroyed or see what would happen if it were. Twilight provides that opportunity and enables us to understand that Archer is required for the mission to succeed. This creates a bit of drama for the following episodes because since we know everything will turn out okay, we want to know why Archer is so invaluable when we've seen what happens when he's not there.

 

[Mach5]

With regards to Archer and T'Pol's relationship evolving, that doesn't necessarily mean they are sleeping with one another or something. A friendship can evolve too.

Absolutely, but it would be hard to build a relationship, when one party has only RAM and no hard drive.
(But I'm pretty sure that they've slept together at some point in that timeline, if only at her 'pon farr happy hour')

I have had acquaintances that have become very close friends to the point of almost being like family.

I have some friends like that myself.

What you consider to be hell (having to tell someone the same things everyday) is similar to what the families of Alzheimer or Dementia patients go through. You keep telling them because you care for them and want them to retain their dignity. It's not hell when it's a friend, spouse, or other close family member.

It may not be hell, but it sure is very painful.

 

[frenchman]

How so?

"If Archer fails, humanity will be destroyed." was the part I've found ridiculous. Twilight suggested that Humanity was utterly helpless without one single captain (Archer) and it portrayed Captain Tucker as a stubborn, borderline-incompetent dick.
The Archer/T'Pol hint I had absolutely no trouble with, since the timeline in which it might have (we don't really know if it did) happened was so grim and screwed up.

One thing that did bother me though was T'Pol saying that their relationship evolved. While her regard for him may have (and would have in given circumstances) evolved, it takes two for relationship to progress, and Archer's condition made that completely impossible. In fact, the life in which she had to explain everything over and over again every day seemed like a pretty fair imitation of hell to me (and reminds me of "The Notebook" which is, in every aspect, a ridiculously crappy movie).
Overall, the ep was not bad, but as a Star Trek episode, it was pretty mediocre.

I have to disagree with a few things you mentioned. At this point in history, Archer was on the only ship that could take out the weapon so of course everything relied on him. He was the captain and would be the one making the decisions. The rest of the crew didn't really have any command experience (even Tucker who was Chief Engineer) so it's not so crazy to assume that without Archer their mission would fail. It's not like the 24th century where there are lots of ships, lots of captains, and experienced crews with other capable commanders (Riker, Data, for example).

Tucker was focused on the present and trying to save the people who were left. I never thought he was a subborn dick as you say. Years of slow travel to a neighbouring star system and seeing your planet destroyed will make you a little different methinks!

With regards to Archer and T'Pol's relationship evolving, that doesn't necessarily mean they are sleeping with one another or something. A friendship can evolve too. I have had acquaintances that have become very close friends to the point of almost being like family. The fact that she's caring for him as his nurse and has come to understand him and humanity in a different and unique way from before could be the evolution she refers to. Archer understands that she is caring for him and is different than he remembers (in a good way).

What you consider to be hell (having to tell someone the same things everyday) is similar to what the families of Alzheimer or Demetia patients go through. You keep telling them because you care for them and want them to retain their dignity. It's not hell when it's a friend, spouse, or other close family member.

I agree with GodBen when he said we know that everything is going to turn out okay. In that sense, we know we will never have the Earth destroyed or see what would happen if it were. Twilight provides that opportunity and enables us to understand that Archer is required for the mission to succeed. This creates a bit of drama for the following episodes because since we know everything will turn out okay, we want to know why Archer is so invaluable when we've seen what happens when he's not there.

i totally agree with your arguments. "twilight" shows us that it's the archer's decisions (immoral or not) which make this mission a success.

concerning captain tucker : a few ships against an army, well nothing weird if he loses the battle. in season four, trip shows us that he can be a very good captain (vulcan arc).

the ship archer/t'pol : how a relationship can evolves if the archer's memory is reset every time? i admit that the feeling of t'pol could have evolved but not those of archer.

anyway, it's a very good episode

 

[Hopeful Romantic]

"Twilight" is one of those polarizing episodes that typically lands on some people's worst 10 lists, and other people's best 10. It's in my top 10; I thought it was an outstanding cautionary tale.

I don't have a problem with the idea that Archer--or Enterprise, and its mission--was pivotal to Earth's survival. History is filled with individuals that have been pivotal to the turn of national or world events. As Bradbury so eloquently illustrated in "A Sound of Thunder," you can step on a butterfly and change the course of history.

I also completely understand that T'Pol's friendship with Archer could have "evolved," despite his memory impairment. They had a history and a solid friendship before his injury, and her daily "catch-up story" wouldn't have taken all day. How he dealt with the ramifications of their present situation, and her state of mind--her guilt, her sacrifice for him--would, I assume, have had an impact on the way he regarded her, even if the effects had been fleeting. And the episode indicates that the effect of her caregiving did have an effect on her.

As for being a caregiver for a person with memory loss or dementia being "hell"...it depends on whether you're doing it willingly or out of obligation, and whether the person is a patient or a loved one. (Those of you who have gone through it, you know what I'm talking about.) In my case, yes, it was very painful to watch my loved one being robbed of a brilliant mind. But hell? No. I knew I was doing all I could for him, and that made it bearable.

I viewed T'Pol the same way. I believe she felt responsible for Archer's condition to some extent, but I also believe she cared about him and took on the role of caregiver willingly.

 

[eepruls]

"Twilight" is one of those polarizing episodes that typically lands on some people's worst 10 lists, and other people's best 10. It's in my top 10; I thought it was an outstanding cautionary tale.

I don't have a problem with the idea that Archer--or Enterprise, and its mission--was pivotal to Earth's survival. History is filled with individuals that have been pivotal to the turn of national or world events. As Bradbury so eloquently illustrated in "A Sound of Thunder," you can step on a butterfly and change the course of history.

I also completely understand that T'Pol's friendship with Archer could have "evolved," despite his memory impairment. They had a history and a solid friendship before his injury, and her daily "catch-up story" wouldn't have taken all day. How he dealt with the ramifications of their present situation, and her state of mind--her guilt, her sacrifice for him--would, I assume, have had an impact on the way he regarded her, even if the effects had been fleeting. And the episode indicates that the effect of her caregiving did have an effect on her.

As for being a caregiver for a person with memory loss or dementia being "hell"...it depends on whether you're doing it willingly or out of obligation, and whether the person is a patient or a loved one. (Those of you who have gone through it, you know what I'm talking about.) In my case, yes, it was very painful to watch my loved one being robbed of a brilliant mind. But hell? No. I knew I was doing all I could for him, and that made it bearable.

I viewed T'Pol the same way. I believe she felt responsible for Archer's condition to some extent, but I also believe she cared about him and took on the role of caregiver willingly.

Great discussion! Remember that it is T'Pol who says their relationship has evolved and she remembers everything. Maybe she did sleep with him during a Ponn Farr event as Mach5 so elequently suggested! They may have talked intimately and she may know private things about him that nobody else does and that he thinks he's never told anyone. So to T'Pol their relationship has changed from the time on Enterprise before the accident. And he can clearly see that their relationship has changed because she's caring for him years after his last memories. All I'm saying is that T'Pol makes the comment so it's from her point of view. Who knows, maybe she was fine with caring for him in the beginning but feels obligated or burdened by caring for him after so long and having to tell him the same things everyday. Even if that is the case, that's still evolution of a relationship.

 

[Level 2 Diagnostic]

With regards to Archer and T'Pol's relationship evolving, that doesn't necessarily mean they are sleeping with one another or something. A friendship can evolve too.

Oh come on. Watch that moment again. With T'Pol's delivery of the line, and Archer's reaction to the line, do you really think the implied meaning was, "we're totally BFFs now!"?

 

[Mach5]

With regards to Archer and T'Pol's relationship evolving, that doesn't necessarily mean they are sleeping with one another or something. A friendship can evolve too.

Oh come on. Watch that moment again. With T'Pol's delivery of the line, and Archer's reaction to the line, do you really think the implied meaning was, "we're totally BFFs now!"?

Actually, the correct subtitling for that moment would IMO be something like:

T'POL: "We're something of a hump-buddies now."
ARCHER: "Oh boy..."

 

[Reanok]

It's Extinction and Exiles.I like some of the scene sin Extinction but still don't care for it or exiles either.

 

[Hopeful Romantic]

With regards to Archer and T'Pol's relationship evolving, that doesn't necessarily mean they are sleeping with one another or something. A friendship can evolve too.

Oh come on. Watch that moment again. With T'Pol's delivery of the line, and Archer's reaction to the line, do you really think the implied meaning was, "we're totally BFFs now!"?

Actually, the correct subtitling for that moment would IMO be something like:

T'POL: "We're something of a hump-buddies now."
ARCHER: "Oh boy..."

Eh. I think it's another moment that is left open to interpretation. Deliberately so, if I recall the commentary correctly. The idea of T'Pol jumping a sick man who regards her as his colleague and friend, solely to quench her sexual need... Not my interpretation.

I still have a problem with the idea that female Vulcans experience classic pon farr. It seems inconsistent with what was established in "Fusion," when Kov specifically told Trip that Vulcan males experienced it. And in TOS's "Amok Time," we see Spock practically out of his mind with the plak tow, while T'Pring is the epitome of cool.

As for weak episodes... I'm no good at these threads, LOL. There are moments I enjoy in all of these. "Extinction" has the peaches scene, and that poignant moment when they discover the ruins of the Loque'que city. "North Star," I just really like a lot; I don't fret about whether it came in the middle of Season 3 or not. "Exile" I like for its "Beauty and the Beast" elements, and the cool camera work. "Harbinger" has great dialogue and music, and that scene at the end with Archer chewing out Reed and Hayes is ...

 

[Mach5]

Actually, the correct subtitling for that moment would IMO be something like:

T'POL: "We're something of a hump-buddies now."
ARCHER: "Oh boy..."

Eh. I think it's another moment that is left open to interpretation. Deliberately so, if I recall the commentary correctly.

One of ENT's biggest flaws in general - too much stuff open for interpretation.

The idea of T'Pol jumping a sick man who regards her as his colleague and friend, solely to quench her sexual need...

Wouldn't a night of steamy passionate rolling in the hay with a gorgeous (Vulcan) woman do his damaged psyche some good? At least for those couple of hours before he forgot all about it...

I still have a problem with the idea that female Vulcans experience classic pon farr. It seems inconsistent with what was established in "Fusion," when Kov specifically told Trip that Vulcan males experienced it.

Braga-ism (a Star Trek equivalent of BS).
Do Vulcan women get the blood fever? According to IaMD - yes they do.

"North Star," I just really like a lot; I don't fret about whether it came in the middle of Season 3 or not.

I agree. As a part of a Xindi arc, it was redundant, but as a standalone, it was fun. Had that classic TNG feel to it.

"Exile" I like for its "Beauty and the Beast" elements.

Oh come on, Hoshi was cute...

"Harbinger" has great dialogue and music, and that scene at the end with Archer chewing out Reed and Hayes is ...

Reed / Hayes (C?) subplot was excellent, and their fight was the best piece of hand-2-hand combat ever seen in star trek. The TnT "You're jealous, no I am not, oh yes you are..." (B plot) stuff was cringe worthy, so was the ridiculous morning-after scene (and I honestly like that pairing).
And the A-plot... Seriously, does anyone even remember what that was about? Some alien... Something about the spheres... Aw, who cares.

 

[cooleddie74]

"Exile" had one tiny little bit of trivia going for it, and THAT might not even be remotely canon. The dead/archaic language in the alien's library of texts that Hoshi takes some time to look at and study? Several people when the episode first aired said it was the language of the dead planet from "The Inner Light(TNG)" and the alphabet was taken straight from lettering shown in that excellent NEXT GEN episode. So it might not technically be canon since nothing was indicated on-screen that it came from that planet, but enough people made note of the similarities and even direct copying that I always assumed it was meant to be a silent nod to "The Inner Light."

 

[Hopeful Romantic]

Eh. I think it's another moment that is left open to interpretation. Deliberately so, if I recall the commentary correctly.

One of ENT's biggest flaws in general - too much stuff open for interpretation.

Hee hee, I love speculating about that stuff, and filling in missing scenes and such. It would be a flaw if it made the plot confusing to follow, but in this case, I found the possible interpretations intriguing.

Wouldn't a night of steamy passionate rolling in the hay with a gorgeous (Vulcan) woman do his damaged psyche some good? At least for those couple of hours before he forgot all about it...

Let's just say we see these two characters differently, and leave it at that.

Do Vulcan women get the blood fever? According to IaMD - yes they do.

Yeah, and Archer's father died when little Jonny was 12, and also after Archer entered flight school. Aha, I've found a weakness! Continuity oversight!-- Oh, sorry, Season 4. Anyway, given a choice, I pick the version that works for me.

The TnT "You're jealous, no I am not, oh yes you are..." (B plot) stuff was cringe worthy, so was the ridiculous morning-after scene (and I honestly like that pairing). And the A-plot... Seriously, does anyone even remember what that was about? Some alien... Something about the spheres... Aw, who cares.

I do remember the A-plot. Pivotal to the Xindi arc, it was. The Trip/T'Pol storyline...I interpreted it differently, regarding character motivation, the subtext in the dialogue, stuff like that, so it worked for me just fine. Including the morning-after scene. Enjoyable episode all around. I guess we'll agree to disagree on this one too.

But "North Star"... Still not doing so hot on the "weak episodes" hunt, sorry.

 

[Mordock]

Either "Carpenter Street" (as I've written before, it was noticeably cheap and it was not tied back to the main arc very well) or "E2" (David Andrews was well-cast as Lorian and Jolene Blalock gave a fascinating turn as the aged T'Pol, but after having made "Twilight", why come up with another alternate-timeline story?). Both episodes felt like padding.

 

[eepruls]

Either "Carpenter Street" (as I've written before, it was noticeably cheap and it was not tied back to the main arc very well) or "E2" (David Andrews was well-cast as Lorian and Jolene Blalock gave a fascinating turn as the aged T'Pol, but after having made "Twilight", why come up with another alternate-timeline story?). Both episodes felt like padding.

I actually found Carpenter Street quite enjoyable and thought it tied into the main arc quite well. It established that the Reptilians would disregard the council's decisions whenever they wanted to and were working with the Sphere Builders (learned later). The audience, as well as Archer and T'Pol learned that it is the Reptilians that are the biggest threat. It showed that the council was not unified. It gave some truth to Archer's story to Degra that the Reptilians and Insectoids attacked the other Xindi (in Stratagem). Later in the arc we find out that the Reptilians were indeed working with the Sphere Builders and that they are the dangerous species not to be trusted. And best of all, it gave us the Drive-Thru sequence which always makes me laugh! Do you want to make that a combo for only 40 cents more?

 

[frenchman]

It's Extinction and Exiles.I like some of the scene sin Extinction but still don't care for it or exiles either.

i like extinction, but it might have had its place in season two, not in three. anyway, good acting and captain tucker was great. according to me, if bakula had decided to leave the show, tucker would have been good as a new captain.

Either "Carpenter Street" (as I've written before, it was noticeably cheap and it was not tied back to the main arc very well) or "E2" (David Andrews was well-cast as Lorian and Jolene Blalock gave a fascinating turn as the aged T'Pol, but after having made "Twilight", why come up with another alternate-timeline story?). Both episodes felt like padding.

agree with you. David Andrews was the perfect actor for this role. when i look at him, i can see a part of tucker and T'pol in him.

 

[Mach5]

Let's just say we see these two characters differently, and leave it at that.

Why, because you're afraid we'd be going off-topic, or is it the prospect of an argument that worries you? Because I don't really have any "feelings" regarding Archer and T'pol, to me they're just a Captain and a XO who happen to be friends.

Yeah, and Archer's father died when little Jonny was 12, and also after Archer entered flight school.

Examples like these can be found in all of Trek, there are some pretty interesting and funny YouTube videos on that subject

Anyway, given a choice, I pick the version that works for me.

As any viewer with half a bran should (TV show is for fan's personal enjoyment).

The Trip/T'Pol storyline...I interpreted it differently, regarding character motivation, the subtext in the dialogue, stuff like that

Hmm, you're tempting me to open a new "Harbinger" thread, I assume that it has been discussed to death already, but hey, TATV threads keep popping out regularly, why not Harbinger then?

Either "Carpenter Street" (as I've written before, it was noticeably cheap and it was not tied back to the main arc very well) or "E2" (David Andrews was well-cast as Lorian and Jolene Blalock gave a fascinating turn as the aged T'Pol

We agree on "Carpenter Street," it looked like "Outer Limits" or "Twilight zone," not "Star Trek."
"E2" - I also consider it unnecessary for the Xindi storyline, it's only apparent purpose was to show that Trip and T'Pol have a serious shot together.
David Andrews - A good actor, but I never really could buy him as a TnT offspring (physical similarities to Trinneer notwithstanding). And I've found him annoying. I don't know why, but I just did.
Old T'pol - terrible makeup, she looked like a cadaver, and acted like one.

if bakula had decided to leave the show, tucker would have been good as a new captain.

Separate that man from his engines, and you'll kill his soul. Trip is an engineer at heart, and the engineering and command are two very different things.
As Sim once said: "The two things I care most about (the engines and T'Pol) are in this room."
T'Pol, on the other hand, would kick major ass in the big chair.

 

[Bluejay]

Extinction
Exile
Chosen Realm

I found North Star to be somewhat mundane (why are they mucking around with this group of humans?) but figured humans smack in the Expanse definitely warrant investigation. Afterall, they might have suspected the Xindi had a hand in it (lab rats or something).

 

[cooleddie74]

Were you guys aware of that supposed "Inner Light" reference in "Exile"? I'm surprised nobody else has mentioned it in so long...whether it's true or not.

 

[Hopeful Romantic]

"Exile" had one tiny little bit of trivia going for it, and THAT might not even be remotely canon. The dead/archaic language in the alien's library of texts that Hoshi takes some time to look at and study? Several people when the episode first aired said it was the language of the dead planet from "The Inner Light(TNG)" and the alphabet was taken straight from lettering shown in that excellent NEXT GEN episode. So it might not technically be canon since nothing was indicated on-screen that it came from that planet, but enough people made note of the similarities and even direct copying that I always assumed it was meant to be a silent nod to "The Inner Light."

I did not realize this. Very cool

ETA:

Let's just say we see these two characters differently, and leave it at that.

Why, because you're afraid we'd be going off-topic, or is it the prospect of an argument that worries you?

It is off-topic, yes. As for being concerned about argument, pfffft. I have no interest at all in arguing. There will always be as many personal opinions as there are viewers. As a writer, I find the examination of a situation or character from many different perspectives to be a useful and enlightening tool. But I have no need to argue a point into the ground, or repeat myself until people see things my way. Dude, life is too short.

Getting back to an episode that has been mentioned more than once in this thread, "E2": gotta say I liked this one also. (But you knew I was going to say that. ) I found Lorian to be a fascinating mixture of calm determination and guilt-ridden desperation, still trying to carry out his Enterprise's 117-year-old mission to defeat the Xindi. I thought David Andrews was spot-on in the role. There were neat little touches, like Archer's visit with old T'Pol, and old T'Pol's counseling of her younger counterpart to "follow your heart" (which, I think, got kinda waylaid by the show's looming cancellation in Season 4, boo). The two Tucker men working in engineering was just cool. And the ending...very poignant, seeing T'Pol charging out to the bridge, finally ready to deal with this whole Lorian business, but it's too late. I wish we had found out what happened to the E2 crew.