We see people stacked like wood frequently

[Locutus of Bored]

Some of the referenced links talk about immigrants, some about illegal immigrants.

The first one was the only one that discussed both because the referenced law affected both, and it specified when it was making a distinction. And I provided two other sources that were specifically about illegals. Besides, since most illegals have fake social security numbers to get a job and therefore pay into social security and other programs automatically (which was the whole point of the article), the distinction is largely irrelevant.

Much of the information here and I've searched for is old, partisan and circularly referential.

The sources from 1997, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, & 2007 are old? It referenced 1996 because that's when the significant law affecting legal and illegal immigrant benefits was passed. And legal/illegal immigration has gone down due to the declining economy, so I'm not sure what would benefit your point of view from the last year and a half that's not covered.

Which one was partisan? The Associated Press? The writer from the Reason Foundation, which is a libertarian free-market think tank? The National Research Council? The Social Security and Medicare Board of Trustees? The Monthly Labor Review? The Federal Reserve Bank of Dallas? The US Census Bureau? I went out of my way to find sources as non-partisan and widely varied as possible and you throw out the same old excuses about partisanship instead of refuting the points raised?

Which was circularly referential? I cited different portions of the relevant articles, none of which carried the same information from the same sources.

C'mon man, if you don't believe my points are accurate, then find your own sources that refute them with evidence to back their conclusions up. But don't just dismiss them out of hand when I backed up my claims after you asked.

For example they talk about the 1996 law that forbade illegal aliens from getting welfare and food stamps. That was only from Federal programs. States in financial trouble such as California and Mass are providing housing and other assistance to people in the country illegally.

Well, it's a good thing I specifically said they pay more than they use in federal taxes then, isn't it? That's what you asked for the link on, and that's what I provided. At the local level they impose a higher burden, which the article cites, but they make up for it at the state and federal level through sales tax and automatically deducted taxes which they can't get back.

As a minor side issue this is interesting. However, the larger issue following the law and providing security to the citizens of the country is paramount.

It's a pretty major issue in the illegal immigration debate. And it would have been a pretty major issue to you I suspect if you had been able to refute what I said.

Certainly they're not following the law, and we've been discussing the ethics of that. But I fail to see how illegal immigrants represent a significant threat to the security of the citizens of the country over and above that of citizens of the same economic level who commit crimes.

 

[TheLonelySquire]

So if all these things are true, then it is left up to the interpretation of the human, or perhaps the human guided by the Holy Spirit, to determine when the law of the land contradicts the law of God, and to determine when those in authority lose the respect their position calls for. Please tell us how what the illegal immigrants are doing is a violation of God's law. Not human law, God's law. Otherwise, it is entirely possible that your interpretation is wrong, and theirs right, about whether this authority should be respected.

Considering the current US immigration policy, that seems to be the most effective way to actually provide for their families - families that they have made sacred vows of blood and water to.

I appreciate your extremely well thought out post. Thanks very much for being so even-handed.

In my opinion(and I understand others may disagree with me) breaking governmental law in this case would not be justified (Romans 1). We are only supposed to do so when governmental law contradicts God's Law (Acts 5).

You're welcome, but I wish you'd better answered my questions.

You say that we are only supposed to break governmental law when governmental law contradicts God's Law. What would you say to someone who believes that in this case, US Immigration laws are contradicting God's Law? Or put another way, why do you think that in this case, breaking governmental law would not be justified? And you can't simply say "because we must obey the law of the land" because that's a circle that avoids the question, not answers it.

Also, you had expressed dismay that many immigrants are sending money home to their families, but from one point of view that seems to be the most effective way to actually provide for their families that they've had to leave behind - families that they have made sacred vows of blood and water to.

If you are talking about me, I was being sarcastic to highlight the absurdity of that position

Sorry if I mistook you Ping, not sure who I was responding to, but sarcasm is always good.

If someone says that the immigration laws contradict God's Law I would ask them how they arrived at this conclusion. I certainly don't see a conrtadiction and that's why I support not breaking governmental law in this case. I think it's a pretty logical POV.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

If someone says that the immigration laws contradict God's Law I would ask them how they arrived at this conclusion.

Leviticus 19:33-34: "And if a stranger sojourn with thee in your land, ye shall not vex him. But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God."

Leviticus 25:35 “If your brother becomes impoverished and his means falter in your proximity, you shall strengthen him–stranger or resident–so that he can live with you.”

Exodus 22:21: "Thou shalt neither vex a stranger, nor oppress him: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt."

Exodus 23:9: "Also thou shalt not oppress a stranger: for ye know the heart of a stranger, seeing ye were strangers in the land of Egypt."

Deuteronomy 10:19: "Love ye therefore the stranger: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt."

Exodus 22:21, "You shall not wrong or oppress a resident alien."

Jeremiah 7:6-7 "If you do not oppress the alien, the fatherless or the widow and do not shed innocent blood in this place, and if you do not follow other gods to your own harm, then I will let you live in this place, in the land I gave your forefathers for ever and ever."

 

[Misfit Toy]

If someone says that the immigration laws contradict God's Law I would ask them how they arrived at this conclusion.

Luke 10:25-37

25 On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. "Teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?"
26 "What is written in the Law?" he replied. "How do you read it?"
27 He answered: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'"
28 "You have answered correctly," Jesus replied. "Do this and you will live."
29 But he wanted to justify himself, so he asked Jesus, "And who is my neighbor?"
30 In reply Jesus said: "A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he fell into the hands of robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead.
31 A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side.
32 So too, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side.
33 But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him.
34 He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, took him to an inn and took care of him.
35 The next day he took out two silver coins and gave them to the innkeeper. 'Look after him,' he said, 'and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.'
36 "Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?"
37 The expert in the law replied, "The one who had mercy on him."
Jesus told him, "Go and do likewise."

 

[Thestral]

Agreed with the above, and I would also ask that you consider Mathew 25: 31-46.

31 "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. 34 "Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'
37 "Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'
40 "The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'
41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'
44 "They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'
45 "He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'
46 "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

 

[Hoser]

If someone says that the immigration laws contradict God's Law I would ask them how they arrived at this conclusion.

It favours the rich over the poor. It keeps the poor from crossing legally, but if they cross illegally they can work here under the table and for crap wages, basically be exploited and treated as a lesser human because they don't have a citizenship. So the government turns a blind eye to that which happens under the table, since they get 'enriched' by it, while it continues to raise the price and wait time of entry.
And then they make laws making it illegal for people to actually help them. Stuff that, if someone needs my help, I'll help them, no matter what the colour of their skin or the country of their birth.
Hoser, pleasantly suprised he didn't have to open his Bible.

 

[Amaris]

If someone says that the immigration laws contradict God's Law I would ask them how they arrived at this conclusion.

It favours the rich over the poor. It keeps the poor from crossing legally, but if they cross illegally they can work here under the table and for crap wages, basically be exploited and treated as a lesser human because they don't have a citizenship. So the government turns a blind eye to that which happens under the table, since they get 'enriched' by it, while it continues to raise the price and wait time of entry.
And then they make laws making it illegal for people to actually help them. Stuff that, if someone needs my help, I'll help them, no matter what the colour of their skin or the country of their birth.
Hoser, pleasantly suprised he didn't have to open his Bible.

Well said.

John, not sure if he can get his Bible open without a team of illegal immigrants and a tow cable.

J.