We see people stacked like wood frequently

[Amaris]

What a waste of a good topic this attack pack mentality creates.

I much prefer my snack pack mentality.

J.

 

[TheLonelySquire]

What a waste of a good topic this attack pack mentality creates.

I much prefer my snack pack mentality.

J.

Love Snack Pack!!!

 

[Davros]

[However, these poor people would still be alive in their homes if they hadn't decided to break our laws.

You have no way of showing this to be true. All you can show is that they would not have died in this specific accident. Any number of things could have killed them had they stayed at home.

 

[Red Ranger]

Or, had they either applied to enter the United States legally or stayed home they would not have been "stacked like wood".

I'm all for legal immigration. However, we need to build a wall to stop this stuff, for our protection and theirs.

Definitely sounds like a political thread to me. Even worse, using a tragedy as a springboard to advance a political agenda. I guess TLS can't do this crap in TNZ anymore, so he foists it upon the decent denizens of Misc.?

This seems like a place for more civil discussion. I'll state my view civilly and hopefully you'll do a good job of it when you stop focusing on the messenger.

My opinion is that this is a terrible, terrible tragedy. At least we share that view. However, these poor people would still be alive in their homes if they hadn't decided to break our laws. At least it appears none of our people were involved in this accident. This time.

And while it may be insensitive to point out the error of their ways, it will hopefully prevent similar deaths like this in the future.

Oh, of course. Because all the coyotes read the TrekBBS! You may couch your political views in a seemingly benign fashion, but it strikes me as passive-aggressive, esp. since you were banned from TNZ.

 

[Red Ranger]

I was raised to respect authority because it has been put in place for a reason. But I do not blindly follow it.

There have been some pretty atrocious acts committed by those in authority throughout history. I'm glad to hear you won't blindly follow them, but at the same time it's a little alarming that they earn your respect simply by being in authority instead of by the quality of their words and deeds.

You can say that with such certainty because you've had the good fortune to be born in a country that afforded you a lot of opportunities to succeed. And you had that good fortune because at one time this country allowed in immigrants like your ancestors in far greater numbers.

Those same opportunities don't always exist in less fortunate countries, and there are fewer opportunities to be had and often a greater number of people competing for them.

Then it's fortunate that this country has a multi-trillion dollar economy and that illegal immigrants contribute billions of dollars worth of low-cost labor annually; labor that might otherwise be outsourced because native workers wouldn't take those jobs. They also contribute significantly more to the federal government in taxes than they use.

What a waste of a good topic this attack pack mentality creates.

What contribution to the topic does this comment make? If there's a specific issue you'd like to address or if you'd like to defend his position, by all means do so.

That Americans wouldn't take labor jobs is preposterous. And most illegal aliens I've known are sending their money home instead of investing it here. I've known plenty. Please provide your evidence that IA's pay more in taxes than the cost in services. And they've stolen any legitimate social security #'s they do submit.

Re, your last dogmatic point: Where is your evidence? I'm sure it came from Fox News or The American Enteprise Institute -- in other words, hardly objective. Sounds entirely anecdotal to me. And therefore, not worth considering seriously. -- RR

 

[Garak]

10 people killed in SUV rollover near Tucson

SONOITA, Ariz. (AP) — Ten illegal immigrants "stacked like wood" in the back of a sports utility vehicle crammed with at least 27 people were killed when the driver lost control and rolled over on a remote southern Arizona highway, authorities said Sunday.

The Ford Excursion had no rear seat and most of the men and women were ejected when the SUV crashed just before midnight Saturday near Sonoita, about 40 miles southeast of Tucson. Authorities said all the victims are believed to be illegal immigrants from El Salvador, Guatemala, Honduras, Equador and perhaps Mexico.

Arizona Department of Public Safety spokeswoman Joy Craig told The Associated Press that the remote area where the crash happened is a route commonly used by those smuggling illegal immigrants into the U.S.
"We see the people stacked like wood frequently," she said. "If they had had the right number of people in there and they all had their seat belts on, they would have lived."

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5g4GfFDOoPF2kZhGFYxI3IvnCJPJwD98M6QOG0

Or, had they either applied to enter the United States legally or stayed home they would not have been "stacked like wood".

I'm all for legal immigration. However, we need to build a wall to stop this stuff, for our protection and theirs.

That's terrible.

I agree with TLS - if only they had of stayed in their country, or entered America legally, this tragedy might have been averted.

 

[TheLonelySquire]

[However, these poor people would still be alive in their homes if they hadn't decided to break our laws.

You have no way of showing this to be true. All you can show is that they would not have died in this specific accident. Any number of things could have killed them had they stayed at home.

I'll cede your point.

 

[TheLonelySquire]

Definitely sounds like a political thread to me. Even worse, using a tragedy as a springboard to advance a political agenda. I guess TLS can't do this crap in TNZ anymore, so he foists it upon the decent denizens of Misc.?

This seems like a place for more civil discussion. I'll state my view civilly and hopefully you'll do a good job of it when you stop focusing on the messenger.

My opinion is that this is a terrible, terrible tragedy. At least we share that view. However, these poor people would still be alive in their homes if they hadn't decided to break our laws. At least it appears none of our people were involved in this accident. This time.

And while it may be insensitive to point out the error of their ways, it will hopefully prevent similar deaths like this in the future.

Oh, of course. Because all the coyotes read the TrekBBS! You may couch your political views in a seemingly benign fashion, but it strikes me as passive-aggressive, esp. since you were banned from TNZ.

It can strike you however you wish. My topic is well within the rules and in this forum people are obligated to stick to the issues. I look forward to hearing your views as well.

 

[SPOCKED]

You may couch your political views in a seemingly benign fashion, but it strikes me as passive-aggressive, esp. since you were banned from TNZ.

Do not drop the TNZ bomb in this forum.

 

[TheLonelySquire]

You may couch your political views in a seemingly benign fashion, but it strikes me as passive-aggressive, esp. since you were banned from TNZ.

Do not drop the TNZ bomb in this forum.

Consider this the Nagasaki portion of the forum. Hiro was on page one.

 

[Misfit Toy]

My topic is well within the rules and in this forum people are obligated to stick to the issues. I look forward to hearing your views as well.

The issue is the tragedy, NOT your "creative interpretation" of right and wrong.

 

[TheLonelySquire]

My topic is well within the rules and in this forum people are obligated to stick to the issues. I look forward to hearing your views as well.

The issue is the tragedy, NOT your "creative interpretation" of right and wrong.

Well. what do you think we should do to prevent these types of tragedies in the future? Maybe we can find some common ground?

 

[Red Ranger]

My topic is well within the rules and in this forum people are obligated to stick to the issues. I look forward to hearing your views as well.

The issue is the tragedy, NOT your "creative interpretation" of right and wrong.

I agree 100%. I don't agree with exploiting the tragedy of people dying in such an accident to validate one's point of view.

Frankly, the hue and cry over illegal immigration is rather overblown. It tends to betray the nativist and, at times, racist view against these "others" who dare break our laws.

What I dont hear often enough from those decrying illegal immigration are complaints against those in the U.S. hiring these folks. But thats typical of the myopic hysteria the issue engenders among a certain segment of the population. Sad.

Red Ranger

 

[Red Ranger]

This seems like a place for more civil discussion. I'll state my view civilly and hopefully you'll do a good job of it when you stop focusing on the messenger.

My opinion is that this is a terrible, terrible tragedy. At least we share that view. However, these poor people would still be alive in their homes if they hadn't decided to break our laws. At least it appears none of our people were involved in this accident. This time.

And while it may be insensitive to point out the error of their ways, it will hopefully prevent similar deaths like this in the future.

Oh, of course. Because all the coyotes read the TrekBBS! You may couch your political views in a seemingly benign fashion, but it strikes me as passive-aggressive, esp. since you were banned from TNZ.

It can strike you however you wish. My topic is well within the rules and in this forum people are obligated to stick to the issues. I look forward to hearing your views as well.

Seems to me you're skirting the rules against political discussion here and for some reason, it's tolerated. Illegal immigration is a hot-button political issue and should be discussed in the proper forum. Your view, whether you want to admit it, is a political expression.

 

[TheLonelySquire]

My topic is well within the rules and in this forum people are obligated to stick to the issues. I look forward to hearing your views as well.

The issue is the tragedy, NOT your "creative interpretation" of right and wrong.

I agree 100%. I don't agree with exploiting the tragedy of people dying in such an accident to validate one's point of view.

Frankly, the hue and cry over illegal immigration is rather overblown. It tends to betray the nativist and, at times, racist view against these "others" who dare break our laws.

What I dont hear often enough from those decrying illegal immigration are complaints against those in the U.S. hiring these folks. But thats typical of the myopic hysteria the issue engenders among a certain segment of the population. Sad.

Red Ranger

I think anyone hiring these people should have their license to to business suspended. They are criminals as well. Private individuals should be fined and prosecuted. Hey, I need my pool cleaned and you won't see me hiring an illegal. No one should.

 

[Thestral]

Nice observation, but if you read the Bible you will see that when the law of the land contradicts the law of God, go with God's law. In Acts for example.

No Locutus, I was not raised that way. I was raised to respect authority because it has been put in place for a reason. But I do not blindly follow it.

I grant those in authority positions the respect the position calls for. Until they foul it up, that is.

So if all these things are true, then it is left up to the interpretation of the human, or perhaps the human guided by the Holy Spirit, to determine when the law of the land contradicts the law of God, and to determine when those in authority lose the respect their position calls for. Please tell us how what the illegal immigrants are doing is a violation of God's law. Not human law, God's law. Otherwise, it is entirely possible that your interpretation is wrong, and theirs right, about whether this authority should be respected.

And most illegal aliens I've known are sending their money home instead of investing it here.

Considering the current US immigration policy, that seems to be the most effective way to actually provide for their families - families that they have made sacred vows of blood and water to.


And regarding whoever it was that simply dismissed the argument of our immigration into Native land as justifiable because it was not illegal, that's a patently ridiculous thing to say. First, because such laws weren't invented until the ancestors of most of us here came into this land; second, because laws/statutes as currently defined only have the teeth of their enforcement - and the Native people couldn't have resisted the Europeans even if they wanted to. Or in other words, see Worcester v. Georgia.

 

[TheLonelySquire]

Oh, of course. Because all the coyotes read the TrekBBS! You may couch your political views in a seemingly benign fashion, but it strikes me as passive-aggressive, esp. since you were banned from TNZ.

It can strike you however you wish. My topic is well within the rules and in this forum people are obligated to stick to the issues. I look forward to hearing your views as well.

Seems to me you're skirting the rules against political discussion here and for some reason, it's tolerated. Illegal immigration is a hot-button political issue and should be discussed in the proper forum. Your view, whether you want to admit it, is a political expression.

Seems to me you haven't read the rules and have violated a number of them yourself. Please familiarize yourself with them again and then we can have a discussion if you so choose.

 

[Amaris]

What a waste of a good topic this attack pack mentality creates.

I much prefer my snack pack mentality.

J.

Love Snack Pack!!!

I've always been a fan of butterscotch.
They don't make it sugar free, though.
So I just make it myself in a huge bowl. That's MY snack pack.


J.

 

[Misfit Toy]

My topic is well within the rules and in this forum people are obligated to stick to the issues. I look forward to hearing your views as well.

The issue is the tragedy, NOT your "creative interpretation" of right and wrong.

Well. what do you think we should do to prevent these types of tragedies in the future? Maybe we can find some common ground?

A reformed process and additional (adequate) staffing would clear the backlog of the Immigration Service. An examination and possible expansion of the list of nations from which we accept political prisoners is needed. A review of current law is in order and certainly amnesty needs to be an option on the table - not a global answer, but an option. That would be my answer if I thought you were serious about your inquiry, but since I know that isn't the case, I'll just say .

 

[TheLonelySquire]

Nice observation, but if you read the Bible you will see that when the law of the land contradicts the law of God, go with God's law. In Acts for example.

No Locutus, I was not raised that way. I was raised to respect authority because it has been put in place for a reason. But I do not blindly follow it.

I grant those in authority positions the respect the position calls for. Until they foul it up, that is.

So if all these things are true, then it is left up to the interpretation of the human, or perhaps the human guided by the Holy Spirit, to determine when the law of the land contradicts the law of God, and to determine when those in authority lose the respect their position calls for. Please tell us how what the illegal immigrants are doing is a violation of God's law. Not human law, God's law. Otherwise, it is entirely possible that your interpretation is wrong, and theirs right, about whether this authority should be respected.

And most illegal aliens I've known are sending their money home instead of investing it here.

Considering the current US immigration policy, that seems to be the most effective way to actually provide for their families - families that they have made sacred vows of blood and water to.


And regarding whoever it was that simply dismissed the argument of our immigration into Native land as justifiable because it was not illegal, that's a patently ridiculous thing to say. First, because such laws weren't invented until the ancestors of most of us here came into this land; second, because laws/statutes as currently defined only have the teeth of their enforcement - and the Native people couldn't have resisted the Europeans even if they wanted to. Or in other words, see Worcester v. Georgia.

I appreciate your extremely well thought out post. Thanks very much for being so even-handed.

In my opinion(and I understand others may disagree with me) breaking governmental law in this case would not be justified (Romans 1). We are only supposed to do so when governmental law contradicts God's Law (Acts 5).

And again, I feel for these people. I am married to a latina! I am a supporter of legal immigration. I'm just not a supporter of criminal activity.