We see people stacked like wood frequently

[TheLonelySquire]

You ooze Christian sympathy with every post. Exodus 22:21

"Do not mistreat an alien or oppress him, for you were aliens in Egypt."

Who is being mistreated or oppressed? How is building a wall mistreating anyone? It's law enforcement. And we give more foreign aid than any country on Earth.

Aren't you the guy who supports immigration raids? Roundups? Having INS tear families apart by deporting people? What would you call arresting someone at work, putting them in a jail cell, and then deporting them while their wife and child still remains in the U.S.? Is that "God's work?" It's certainly not hospitality.

I'm for enforcing our laws. And there's no reason they have to separate. They are more than welcome to accompany their family members back home if they so choose.

And you mean arresting a criminal at a place where they are illegally employed, do you not?

Again, any alien who wishes to make a life for themselves here in the USA is welcome to apply. If they do so legally I will welcome them with open arms. What's so wrong about following our laws?

 

[TheLonelySquire]

Who is being mistreated or oppressed? How is building a wall mistreating anyone? It's law enforcement. And we give more foreign aid than any country on Earth.

Aren't you the guy who supports immigration raids? Roundups? Having INS tear families apart by deporting people? What would you call arresting someone at work, putting them in a jail cell, and then deporting them while their wife and child still remains in the U.S.? Is that "God's work?" It's certainly not hospitality.

Uh....

To borrow a phrase from RJ, focus on "ideas, not ideology," and discussion of individual policies rather than your negative impression of a political party or group as a whole.

Someone isn't playing by the rules.

I'm certainly focused on ideas. My idea was that these folks should have stayed home. If they had they would still be alive. And how is asking that people "follow the laws of the land" an ideology?

Also, it would go much smoother if some folks here would address the issue rather than go after the messenger.

 

[Squiggy]

This seems like a place for more civil discussion. I'll state my view civilly and hopefully you'll do a good job of it when you stop focusing on the messenger.

Sort of hard to do with that avatar you have there.

 

[Pingfah]

Seems like arguments against illegal immigration would be better made on economic and sociological grounds than by spurious causal arguments that just come off as being the opportunistic use of a terrible tragedy.

I don't see this as being a very constructive leaping off point to begin a mature conversation on immigration at all frankly.

 

[ThankQ]

Aren't you the guy who supports immigration raids? Roundups? Having INS tear families apart by deporting people? What would you call arresting someone at work, putting them in a jail cell, and then deporting them while their wife and child still remains in the U.S.? Is that "God's work?" It's certainly not hospitality.

Uh....

To borrow a phrase from RJ, focus on "ideas, not ideology," and discussion of individual policies rather than your negative impression of a political party or group as a whole.

Someone isn't playing by the rules.

I'm certainly focused on ideas. My idea was that these folks should have stayed home. If they had they would still be alive. And how is asking that people "follow the laws of the land" an ideology?

Also, it would go much smoother if some folks here would address the issue rather than go after the messenger.

Uh, my thing was directed at WF, not you.

 

[ThankQ]

My idea was that these folks should have stayed home. If they had they would still be alive.

I know that's your point.

"If they had had the right number of people in there and they all had their seat belts on, they would have lived."
.............................
Or, had they either applied to enter the United States legally or stayed home they would not have been "stacked like wood".

To further mean, of course, they'd still be alive.

Well, seems to me some people want a better life in a new land.

Seems to me, throughout history, people have taken upon huge personal risk, including life, to find a better home in a new land.

I wonder where exactly the human race would be today if no one ever risked danger to find a better life in a new land.

I suppose after the climate changed, we would have gone extinct in the African desert rather than migrating to where the food was.

Guess we were pretty lucky no one had built a wall around Europe and Asia.

 

[PKTrekGirl]

You know, I was going to say that political threads in Misc were nothing new - they have always been allowed, IF conducted in a civilized fashion...and that those who were shocked that this was allowed in Misc clearly haven't been here that long.

However, now that I see how well this thread is going....well, I'm rather disappointed. Same old polarized bullshit, with no middle ground. The far right and the far left have weighed in with the usual shots. And those of us in the middle are left disgusted and disappointed that it always seems to be that way.

Here's hoping that SOMEDAY this country heals, and that we can start treating those with opposing political views with some modicum of respect.

 

[TheLonelySquire]

Seems like arguments against illegal immigration would be better made on economic and sociological grounds than by spurious causal arguments that just come off as being the opportunistic use of a terrible tragedy.

I don't see this as being a very constructive leaping off point to begin a mature conversation on immigration at all frankly.

My argument versus illegal aliens is based on the concept of right and wrong. Do the right things and life has a way of working out. Do the opposite and things like this happen.

Am i saddened that these people were killed? Absolutely. Am I surprised that their actions led to this? Not by a longshot.

 

[ThankQ]

Seems like arguments against illegal immigration would be better made on economic and sociological grounds than by spurious causal arguments that just come off as being the opportunistic use of a terrible tragedy.

I don't see this as being a very constructive leaping off point to begin a mature conversation on immigration at all frankly.

My argument versus illegal aliens is based on the concept of right and wrong. Do the right things and life has a way of working out. Do the opposite and things like this happen.

Am i saddened that these people were killed? Absolutely. Am I surprised that their actions led to this? Not by a longshot.

Wait wait wait...

Are you suggesting that the universe or fate or whatever you want to call it, keeps up with US immigration law and endangers (or stops protecting) those who ignore it?

 

[Pingfah]

Seems like arguments against illegal immigration would be better made on economic and sociological grounds than by spurious causal arguments that just come off as being the opportunistic use of a terrible tragedy.

I don't see this as being a very constructive leaping off point to begin a mature conversation on immigration at all frankly.

My argument versus illegal aliens is based on the concept of right and wrong. Do the right things and life has a way of working out. Do the opposite and things like this happen.

Am i saddened that these people were killed? Absolutely. Am I surprised that their actions led to this? Not by a longshot.

And it's a rather obvious point if you don't mind me saying so. It really doesn't need repeating nor does it mean that there is no argument beyond it.

 

[ThankQ]

Seems like arguments against illegal immigration would be better made on economic and sociological grounds than by spurious causal arguments that just come off as being the opportunistic use of a terrible tragedy.

I don't see this as being a very constructive leaping off point to begin a mature conversation on immigration at all frankly.

My argument versus illegal aliens is based on the concept of right and wrong. Do the right things and life has a way of working out. Do the opposite and things like this happen.

Am i saddened that these people were killed? Absolutely. Am I surprised that their actions led to this? Not by a longshot.

And it's a rather obvious point if you don't mind me saying so. It really doesn't need repeating nor does it mean that there is no argument beyond it.

The point is greatly flawed. It assumes that, to the universe, crossing over a man-made line in the sand is an offensive act.

 

[Pingfah]

^ I'm thinking more along the lines of the OP itself. To paraphrase "If Mexicans didn't try and get into the country, they wouldn't die in car crashs. Do you agree or not? Yes? Then illegal immigration is bad wouldn't you say?"

It's a bit of a simplistic way to ignore all other issues related to it.

 

[ThankQ]

^ I'm thinking more along the lines of the OP itself. To paraphrase "If Mexicans didn't try and get into the country, they wouldn't die in car crashs. Do you agree or not? Yes? Then illegal immigration is bad wouldn't you say?"

It's a bit of a simplistic way to ignore all other issues related to it.

Yes, and I'd like to test it...

To your point, TLS, if I were to murder an illegal immigrant, should I be held responsible for murder in the US justice system, or does the fact that he was here illegally and wouldn't have been killed had he stayed home absolve me of murdering him?

 

[Robert Maxwell]

You know, I was going to say that political threads in Misc were nothing new - they have always been allowed, IF conducted in a civilized fashion...and that those who were shocked that this was allowed in Misc clearly haven't been here that long.

However, now that I see how well this thread is going....well, I'm rather disappointed. Same old polarized bullshit, with no middle ground. The far right and the far left have weighed in with the usual shots. And those of us in the middle are left disgusted and disappointed that it always seems to be that way.

Here's hoping that SOMEDAY this country heals, and that we can start treating those with opposing political views with some modicum of respect.

What are you talking about? The issue is "polarized" only in the minds of those whose worldview is "all laws must be upheld, and if you violate the law, you deserve what you get." People who come here illegally aren't exactly living high on the hog. They drain social resources because they have to live under the radar until something catastrophic happens. They live in fear of deportation. Basically, all the things both sides say about them are true--they take jobs from Americans (that is, low-paid, physically laborious jobs), they drain our social services, but they are also mistreated by their employers who know they have little recourse, and they do their best to avoid contact with authorities even when it would be in their interest to seek help.

I can't speak for them because I'm not one of them, but I can only assume what they go through is worth the risk to them, otherwise, why would they do it?

So, if we want to tackle the issue in any serious way, you can only do a few things, none of them easy:

* Make getting here more difficult.
* Make staying here more difficult.
* Eliminate the incentives for employers to hire them.
* Make their home country better so they aren't so tempted to flee here.

No one thing will solve the problem, and above all else we should remember we're not talking about hypothetical creatures here, but actual human beings. When they die, it's not them "getting what they deserve" or however TLS couched it. Otherwise, you could say anyone who meets a tragic end must have somehow earned it through their own unethical behavior.

 

[iguana_tonante]

Seems like arguments against illegal immigration would be better made on economic and sociological grounds than by spurious causal arguments that just come off as being the opportunistic use of a terrible tragedy.

I don't see this as being a very constructive leaping off point to begin a mature conversation on immigration at all frankly.

My argument versus illegal aliens is based on the concept of right and wrong. Do the right things and life has a way of working out. Do the opposite and things like this happen.

Am i saddened that these people were killed? Absolutely. Am I surprised that their actions led to this? Not by a longshot.

Wait wait wait...

Are you suggesting that the universe or fate or whatever you want to call it, keeps up with US immigration law and endangers (or stops protecting) those who ignore it?

As ridiculous as it sounds, looks like he is saying exactly that.

 

[cultcross]

My argument versus illegal aliens is based on the concept of right and wrong. Do the right things and life has a way of working out. Do the opposite and things like this happen.

Were that anywhere close to true, the world would be a much nicer place. Whatever the clichés say, crime pays. That's why people do it.

 

[Misfit Toy]

And how is asking that people "follow the laws of the land" an ideology?

You're aware that our founding fathers didn't follow the "laws of the land", aren't you? Even Jesus Christ didn't follow the "laws of the land".

 

[ThankQ]

And how is asking that people "follow the laws of the land" an ideology?

You're aware that our founding fathers didn't follow the "laws of the land", aren't you? Even Jesus Christ didn't follow the "laws of the land".

Not to mention "people should follow the laws of the land" is, in fact, quite obviously, an ideology.

 

[Thestral]

You ooze Christian sympathy with every post. Exodus 22:21

"Do not mistreat an alien or oppress him, for you were aliens in Egypt."

And I wasn't trying to turn this into a religious subject but since you mentioned it, the Bible also says we must obey the laws of our land as they have been established by God.

So what do you do when the Scriptures contradict each other? Or, since you don't think of what's being done to illegal aliens as mistreatment or oppression, what would you have done in the 1850s regarding slavery?

Jesus Christ's ministry was a living embodiment of Micah 6:8. If we're to be followers of Christ, we must be willing to set aside some of Paul and the Pastoral letters. We have before (slavery, women in ministry, "dress codes"), why not now? Really, the idea that human interpretations of God's will and the laws built upon such interpretations cannot be overturned as the Holy Spirit brings new revelation flies in the face of the "new wine, old wineskins" passages.

 

[ThankQ]

Jesus Christ's ministry was a living embodiment of Micah 6:8. If we're to be followers of Christ, we must be willing to set aside some of Paul and the Pastoral letters. We have before (slavery, women in ministry, "dress codes"), why not now?

If we could somehow get every Christian to truly absorb this, the world would be that much closer to perfect.

I'm a little embarrassed, but the best I can think to say is: Very, very well said.