"We don't Surrender" Star Trek 6

[Uptightgirl]

I thought it was quite ridiculous of Captain Kirk to surrender as the klingons were about to fire back.

He should never have said "We surrender,signal our surrender".

All he had to do was raise shields take a couple of hits then target and disable their weapons.He had a dozen witnesses on the bridge to confirm that he did not order firing on the klingon vessel.Once the klingons were disabled and their shields down they beam them over to the Enterprise
into the brig and explain they never fired.

Also it was quite ridiculous that they coud not find the point of origin of the bird of prey photon torpedeos and also that no vibration/noise was generated at all as the torps were never fired from the Fanterprise from their launch points as you would feel due to reaction due to high launch speed...meaning due to absence of vibration wouid confirm to all that no torps left the Enterpris.Also the klingons never replayed the video of the torps to show it did not come from the Enterprise but from below it.

 

[Forbin]

To the first point: his mission was diplomatic, his desire was to avoid hostilities at all costs and maintain cordial relations as best as possible. Not to start a shooting war.

The Klingons didn't believe they didn't fire in the first place, they'd believe them even less after they DID fire and then beamed them into a friggin jail cell!

To the second point: They knew full well they didn't fire the torps. They just couldn't figure out where they did come from until they made the intuitive leap of a claoked ship beneath them.

 

[archeryguy1701]

Resistance would be a pretty good sign to the Klingons that they fired. And it wouldn't matter if Kirk had a bridge full of witness's saying he didn't order the firing; the question was whether or not they fired at all. As for seeing the torpedo or not feeling it leave the ship, the whole bridge and monitoring crew of the Klingon ship could have been in on the conspiracy, causing the to over-look that discrepancy. Also, the ship hasn't jarred from firing torpedos since TOS ended.

 

[David cgc]

In fact, what you propose was exactly what the conspirators hoped for. The Klingons would retaliate against the Enterprise's "attack." Kirk would respond defensively. Ideally, Quo'nos One would destroy the Enterprise. The Federation would be convinced that the Klingons fabricated a ridiculous assassination plot as an excuse for an attack, the Klingons would be convinced the Federation exploited their weakness to kill their leader, and then a war would start.

Pretty much the only way Kirk could've short-circuited the conspiracy was by surrendering. Remember, this is before the Voyager days where it's easy as pie to disable a starship in battle without destroying it. And even if that did work, as Forbin said, the Klingons would not be very receptive to "explanations" after their ship had been fired upon, boarded, fired upon again, had her crew imprisoned, and the ship itself taken a prize.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

Moving to Trek Movies

 

[Matt]

If Star Trek was real, and he disabled their weapons and tried to explain, not only would the Klingons never believe it, but the prototype Bird of Prey would have jammed all frequencies and destroyed both ships, which I'm sure would have escalated the situation into a war instantly.

The Chancellor's ship, and the flagship of Starfleet with it's most legendary crew all dead? The galaxy would be at war rather quickly... Klingons evacuating their homeworld and invading other planets. That war would last a long time. Centuries, perhaps.

 

[A beaker full of death]

Uptightgirl said:

All he had to do was raise shields take a couple of hits then target and disable their weapons.

You've been watching too much modern Trek. It's not like dungeons and dragons. You can't pick and choose what effect a torpedo shot will have. You're just lucky to hit the bastard at all.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

It's not a very well-written film.

 

[Number_6]

North Pole-aris said:
It's not a very well-written film.

Well, you're certainly the expert on this.

 

[Peach Wookiee]

I think that's all a matter of opinion, guys...

 

[InklingStar]

That was a great scene. Captain Kirk, bane of Klingons for years, the symbol of the hated Federation, the one that Chang and the rest counted on to return fire and start an intergalactic war... surrenders. Not because he is outmatched, or because he is afraid. Because he knows that peace was necessary, at all costs.

 

[Delta1]

A beaker full of death said:

You've been watching too much modern Trek. It's not like dungeons and dragons. You can't pick and choose what effect a torpedo shot will have. You're just lucky to hit the bastard at all.

Exactly. On Voyager they could disable any enemy's weapons, HDTV, and head with a line of dialog. In real Star Trek (sorry), combat is bloody. Firing on a battleship carrying an alien head of state--let alone kidnapping her officers or diplomatic party, as the OP suggested--could only have ended poorly.

 

[Peach Wookiee]

Trek 6 was inspired by RL events...

 

[Malleus]

^^^ Wasn't there a Gene Hackman movie regarding a fictional bilateral agreement on total nuclear disarmament between the US and the Soviets? Also, the actor playing Kevin McAllister's (Home Alone) dad was one of the bad guys on both sides plotting an assassination.

 

[Cyke101]

Uptightgirl said:
I thought it was quite ridiculous of Captain Kirk to surrender as the klingons were about to fire back.

He should never have said "We surrender,signal our surrender".

All he had to do was raise shields take a couple of hits then target and disable their weapons.He had a dozen witnesses on the bridge to confirm that he did not order firing on the klingon vessel.Once the klingons were disabled and their shields down they beam them over to the Enterprise
into the brig and explain they never fired.

Also it was quite ridiculous that they coud not find the point of origin of the bird of prey photon torpedeos and also that no vibration/noise was generated at all as the torps were never fired from the Fanterprise from their launch points as you would feel due to reaction due to high launch speed...meaning due to absence of vibration wouid confirm to all that no torps left the Enterpris.Also the klingons never replayed the video of the torps to show it did not come from the Enterprise but from below it.

If Kirk had fired back, the Federation and the Klingons would have never arrived at the Undiscovered Country. Let's not shoot down the movie titles, eh? But I love this part:

Once the klingons were disabled and their shields down they beam them over to the Enterprise
into the brig and explain they never fired.

Except, under your scenario, not only did the Enterprise truly fire, but they did so with a bit of excessive force, too.

As was mentioned earlier, Kirk chose the peaceful option, and ultimately he was proven right for doing so by the end of the movie. It's all about the context and the big picture, rather than the pretty torpedoes and the obligatory explosions.

 

[Uptightgirl]

Allright then... he could just raise shields and go to warp speed away from any conflict.

As the Klingon ship was only damaged,they could explain it away that it was not them by showing them the logs and the neutrino surge and video logs showing Kirk never ordered any firing.

Remember they had video logs of the bridge in TOS as in the Finnegan pod episode.

Also why did the conspirators on the Klingon ship NOT fire anyway on the unshielded and undefended Enterprise after surrendering?
I mean nothing could stop them.3 shots and it would be toast.

Was it Chekov who said if "if they fire with shields down we could not respond"...

I thought Kkklingons don't take prisoners.

I mean if they had fired and destroyed the Enterprise anyway even after the surrendering they would still have achieved the same result of war.

Also the SHIELDED Enterprise always wins against a klingon d7 katinga warship.

Also it was only the low value servant chancellor on board.It was not the klingon Emperor.

Kirk could have explained that if he had wanted to destroy the D7 he could have,why would he just stop with damaging it slightly.

""" Quote:
Uptightgirl said:

All he had to do was raise shields take a couple of hits then target and disable their weapons.
You've been watching too much modern Trek. It's not like dungeons and dragons. You can't pick and choose what effect a torpedo shot will have. You're just lucky to hit the bastard at all."""




Also your arguement that the TOS enterprise could not target like Voyager is totally wrong.
Remember the photons targeted the gravity generators very precisely precisely .

 

[Dancing Doctor]

Uptightgirl said:
I thought it was quite ridiculous of Captain Kirk to surrender as the klingons were about to fire back.

He should never have said "We surrender,signal our surrender".

Because the alternative (moving the situation with the Klingons from détente to an actual war) is just so much better.

All he had to do was raise shields take a couple of hits then target and disable their weapons.He had a dozen witnesses on the bridge to confirm that he did not order firing on the klingon vessel.Once the klingons were disabled and their shields down they beam them over to the Enterprise
into the brig and explain they never fired.

If they were disinclined to believe him when he surrenders and willingly goes over to their vessel, then what would make them believe it after the Enterprise has *truly* fired on them and disabled them. Also, why would the Klingons accept the words of Kirk's loyal officers? And, how would shoving the Klingons (since you didn't specify how many I'll assume the entire crew) into the brig and then saying "Hey guys, there was a bit of a misunderstanding. We actually didn't fire on your ship. We don't know who did, but it wasn't us." Plus, while all of this was going on, you seemed to have forgotten the fact that Federation citizens in Starfleet using Starfleet weapons and Starfleet technology beamed over (with the distinctive Starfleet/Federation effects and sound) and shot several Klingon Defense Force members, as well as the freaking Chancellor of the High Council.

Also it was quite ridiculous that they coud not find the point of origin of the bird of prey photon torpedeos and also that no vibration/noise was generated at all as the torps were never fired from the Fanterprise from their launch points as you would feel due to reaction due to high launch speed...meaning due to absence of vibration wouid confirm to all that no torps left the Enterpris.Also the klingons never replayed the video of the torps to show it did not come from the Enterprise but from below it.

Okay, that was a long run-on paragraph. You don't necessarily see or feel the ship shake once torpedoes are fired. The bird-of-prey, for example, when firing, does not shake. Also, the Enterprise wasn't certain that they didn't fire it after all. It would be easy to delete or edit the computer information. Also, why would the Klingons want to replay the visual data showing the torpedo coming at them? A torpedo came from the same direction as the Enterprise, Kirk and Crew's hatred or lack of liking of Klingons is well known...end of story as far as they are concerned. Plus, one of the conspirators was a high-ranking officer in the KDF and, presumably, was in charge of Kronos One during the trip. With conspirators on both ships, it would be easy to edit the data to reflect what appeared to happen.

 

[Dancing Doctor]

Uptightgirl said:
Allright then... he could just raise shields and go to warp speed away from any conflict.

As the Klingon ship was only damaged,they could explain it away that it was not them by showing them the logs and the neutrino surge and video logs showing Kirk never ordered any firing.

Since the mission was to escort Kronos One through Federation territory and to protect it from attack, this just makes Kirk and the Enterprise look even guiltier. And what happens if, after they warp away, Kronos One is destroyed by whatever? Now things are really going to go down the tubes, and the question of "Who fired?" no longer matters.

Remember they had video logs of the bridge in TOS as in the Finnegan pod episode.

And how easy is it to fake those? Nothing is foolproof. And again, why would the Klingons (the vast majority of whom weren't in on the conspiracy) believe anything that the Enterprise crew tells them? From their point of view, they were unjustly attacked without honor.

Also why did the conspirators on the Klingon ship NOT fire anyway on the unshielded and undefended Enterprise after surrendering?
I mean nothing could stop them.3 shots and it would be toast.

Was it Chekov who said if "if they fire with shields down we could not respond"...

Because then it looks more like the Klingons are antagonists, instead of the wounded party there. Doesn't Chang put on an act about how they trusted the Enterprise and were defenseless or some nonsense? It makes them look a lot better if they don't fire back.

I thought Kkklingons don't take prisoners.

Rura Penthe?

I mean if they had fired and destroyed the Enterprise anyway even after the surrendering they would still have achieved the same result of war.

But then they don't look as good, and Command would have lost a powerful weapon in the upcoming war.

Also the SHIELDED Enterprise always wins against a klingon d7 katinga warship.

You just said the Enterprise was unshielded. Which is it? And this K't'inga-class warship was escorting a very high-ranking Klingon. I would assume its defenses would be more than up to par.

Also it was only the low value servant chancellor on board.It was not the klingon Emperor.

You mean Kahless, the dead (at this point) guy? The Klingon High Chancellor is the highest ranking and most powerful person in the Klingon Empire. He's not "low value" or "a servant"

Kirk could have explained that if he had wanted to destroy the D7 he could have,why would he just stop with damaging it slightly.

And not only make himself look like an ass, but make the situation worse.

Also your arguement that the TOS enterprise could not target like Voyager is totally wrong.
Remember the photons targeted the gravity generators very precisely precisely .

They were just firing at the freaking ship! They weren't targeting anything! The fact that the gravity went out (or life support, as would be more logical) is just a way for the producers to have the nifty scenes where the purple blood goes flying all about.

 

[Haytil]

Uptightgirl said:
Allright then... he could just raise shields and go to warp speed away from any conflict.

As the Klingon ship was only damaged,they could explain it away that it was not them by showing them the logs and the neutrino surge and video logs showing Kirk never ordered any firing.

Why would the Klingons believe that? To them, it looks the Enterprise engaged in a cowardly hit-and-run. What reason would they have to believe the Enterprise crew wasn't lying?

It's very fishy when an enemy shoots you point-blank, runs away, and then says "Wasn't my fault!"

Remember they had video logs of the bridge in TOS as in the Finnegan pod episode.

Video logs can be faked. See "In the Pale Moonlight" for an example. Why would the Klingons believe the video logs weren't faked? They have a dead chancellor to prove that they were fired upon - that's all that mattered to them.

Also why did the conspirators on the Klingon ship NOT fire anyway on the unshielded and undefended Enterprise after surrendering?

I mean nothing could stop them.3 shots and it would be toast.

There's no honor in firing on a target that has thrown down its weapons (metaphorically) and surrendered.

I thought Kkklingons don't take prisoners.

That's a rather narrow-minded, one-sided view of an entire race of people - exactly the kind of thing "Star Trek 6" is about. Despite what you, or Starfleet, may have thought, the Klingons were a people that valued life and justice as much as anyone else.

I mean if they had fired and destroyed the Enterprise anyway even after the surrendering they would still have achieved the same result of war.

The Klingons were trying to avoid war - they initiated the peace talks. Some of them conspired to have a war, but they were not the majority of Klingons.

If Chang had fired on Enterprise, given the Enterprise's surrender, it may have come out that Chang was instigating a war when Enterprise was trying to stand down.

Also the SHIELDED Enterprise always wins against a klingon d7 katinga warship.

Says who?

Also it was only the low value servant chancellor on board.It was not the klingon Emperor.

The only evidence we have of a Klingon Emperor is that of a ceremonial position, established in the 24th century by a clone of Kahless. The Chancellor is the power behind the Klingon government.

There's no reason to suggest a Klingon Emperor existed at the time of "Star Trek 6." If it did, it was likely ceremonial (just as the Queen is ceremonial in England, and the real power is the Prime Minister).

Kirk could have explained that if he had wanted to destroy the D7 he could have,why would he just stop with damaging it slightly.

Threats and boasts do not work well for diplomacy.

 

[Haytil]

Vixen said:

Uptightgirl said:
Also your arguement that the TOS enterprise could not target like Voyager is totally wrong.
Remember the photons targeted the gravity generators very precisely precisely .

They were just firing at the freaking ship! They weren't targeting anything! The fact that the gravity went out (or life support, as would be more logical) is just a way for the producers to have the nifty scenes where the purple blood goes flying all about.

The OP has a point here - the gravity generators must've been targeted specifically. How else would the two assassins have known to be suited up and wearing grav boots?

Although those shots were made against an unmoving, unshielded target. Targeting specific systems may be an entirely different ball game when shields are up and the ships are moving relative to one another.