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We don't need no Fed-er-a-tion...

φ of π

Captain
Captain
What would happen if a planet deep inside Federation space develops Warp drive, but wants to be their own empire? In theory the only way they could expand said empire is by annexing territory already claimed by the Federation. I don't see the Federation being okay with that.

Do they have no choice but to allow the Federation to assimilate them and have their culture adapt to service them? Is resistance futile?
 
Well, you don't HAVE to join the Federation, even if your system is within their borders - membership is voluntary (but encouraged). But I seriously doubt the Federation will tolerate an expansionist militaristic empire slaughtering its citizens and taking over member worlds.
 
What about colonizing uninhabited worlds that the Federation has decided are within its borders?
 
What about colonizing uninhabited worlds that the Federation has decided are within its borders?
I don't believe the Federation would have a problem with that, though I'm sure they'd rather just have them become Federation members.
 
What about colonizing uninhabited worlds that the Federation has decided are within its borders?
If it's within Federation territory, it belongs to the Federation whether the Federation is doing anything with it or not. Generally though, the Federation is pretty good about giving nascent or wayward communities a place of their own.
 
^If your planet/star system is not part of the Federation then it does not matter, even if you are surrounded by Federation members, then its not Federation territory. The Federation is not a joined up galactic land mass, its made of up different pockets of planets who choose to join. The Federation is similar to the USA, the state of Alaska and Hawaii. As close as Alaska is, Canada cannot claim it.
 
Actually, I guess, saying "Federation Territory" is like saying "NATO Terrirory."
A member state (planet) is Fed Territory, but the country (planet) next door may not be. Like, Italy and Germany are NATO members, but Switzerland, which is between them and borders on both, is not.
 
IMHO the Federation space is like a block of Swiss cheese. Swiss cheese has spherical holes in it created by bubbles during processing. In the central regions of the Federation, Federation space is like the block of Swiss cheese and space not ruled by the Federation is like the bubble holes. In the outer regions of the Federation, space not ruled by the Federation is like the block of Swiss cheese and space ruled by the Federation is like the bubble holes.

Or think about physical geography on the two dimensional surface of Earth. Federation space can be like Canadian land. In the central parts of the Federation, Federation space is like continental Canada and non Federation space is like the many lakes in Canada. In the outer parts of the Federation, Federation space is like the Canadian Arctic Islands and non Federation space is like the Arctic Ocean.

Or you could compare the Federation to an island nation like Indonesia, the Philippines, the Maldives, or the Bahamas.

In modern times, the City of Rome, Italy, surrounds a foreign country, the tiny Vatican City. And it also surrounds the even tinier headquarters of the S.M.O.M., which is sometimes also considered a separate country. Italy also surrounds the tiny country of San Marino.

There are many other examples of political enclaves and exclaves.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_enclaves_and_exclaves

Maybe the Federation has a rule that if a planet has a non warp capable intelligent species, the Federation won't colonize that planet or any other in the same solar system. Or maybe the rule is to not colonize any planets within 10 or 20 light years, or some other distance. This will give the intelligent beings a number of star systems they can colonize once they discover warp drive.

And if the stars within that sphere are not enough for that species, they can negotiate with the Federation for the right to cross Federation space to explore, settle, and maybe even conquer star systems beyond Federation space. I suspect that the Cardassian Union rules both a small sphere of space around Cardassia Prime containing a few stars surrounded by Federation space and a vast region of space beyond Federation borders.

And in the outer reaches of the Federation, Federation space is likely to be like islands surrounded by a sea of non federation space, both space belonging to other realms and free space that is not claimed by any realm. If a non Federation planet develops warp drive out there, they will be able to freely expand into free space but can't expand into Federation space or space claimed by other realms without having to fight for it.

And in a related topic:

In James Blish's Cities in Flight series They Shall have Stars/Year 2018! (wow, that's this year), A Life for the Stars, Earthman Come Home, and The Triumph of Time Earth men explore and colonize nearby stars and then encounter the Vegan Confederation, also known as the Vegan Tyranny. Centuries later Earth history books claim that the Vegan Tyranny was totally evil and that Earth men heroically defeated and overthrew it despite being outnumbered thousands or millions to one.

The local group is the term used by astronomers for a small group of a few dozen galaxies including our own galaxy. James Blish used "local group" to refer to the stars within a radius of 25, or 50, light years from Earth, with a diameter of 50, or 100, light years. Blish also mentioned the Vegan Tyranny in his adaptation of "Tomorrow is Yesterday". Mr. Scott wondered where they could go in the 1960s, because back then "space outside the local group was ruled by the Vegan Tyranny, and we all know what happened when we ran into them."

Scott didn't say that the Vegan Tyranny ruled right up to the edge of the local group, he said that the Vegans ruled space outside the local group, implying that Vegan space surrounded the local group. I believe that the Vegan Confederation is said in Cities in Flight to have existed for 10,000 years and ruled half the Galaxy. Thus you might suppose that it spread from it's original planet many thousands of light years from Earth to rule over tens of thousands of light years, and that the local group was a tiny bubble of unoccupied space at the edge of the Confederation or actually surrounded by it.

Except that the Vegans came from Vega, and Vega was the third star whose distance from Earth was measured, back around 1840. Vega is about 25 light years from Earth, putting it at the edge of the local group if it has a radius of 25 light years, or inside the local group if it has a radius of 50 light years. So why did the Vegans explore, colonize, and conquer planets tens of thousands of light years from Vega while ignoring many of the stars closest to Vega?

Maybe the first Vegan expedition to Earth encountered Cthulhu 10,000 or more years ago and Cthulhu told them Earth was his and stay away, so they decided to never colonize any planets within 25 (or 50) light years from Earth.

Or maybe the Vegans, similar to the Federation, decided to not colonize the planets within 25 (or 50) light years from Earth so that the Earthlings could colonize them when they discovered star travel thousands of years later. Oh those evil Vegans!
 
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It would be difficult to build an empire within the Federation being hundreds of years behind technologically. I suppose if a warp civilization decided to attack a neighboring prewarp civilization, the Federation by their own rules would not be able to intervene. And they could probably just grab a world the Federation is not using.

Though you could question how many inhabitable worlds with no native intelligent life are really left that aren't colonized. And if they were attacking other worlds they'd be prevented from flying through any Federation space or attacking any Federation colonies even if there are 50 people on the whole planet.

But yes, a new warp world surrounded immediately by prewarp worlds could attack those other worlds with impunity. And if they then got attacked by another power, or if they attacked a world that could fight back, the Federation would say "Sorry, prime directive and all, you know how it is."

Also I would point out in this situation, the leader of this world would probably assess the situation and think attacking other worlds was a very unwise thing to do. At least until they had established relationships with neighboring powers and gradually accumulated the economic and martial resources to protect their gains.
 
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Space is three dimensional. There's a lot of territory in it, and a lot in the vague area of Federation territory that has not been explored, claimed, joined or settled. On a three dimensional map, two states could literally overlap one another, while not actually claiming the same territory.
 
Space is three dimensional. There's a lot of territory in it, and a lot in the vague area of Federation territory that has not been explored, claimed, joined or settled. On a three dimensional map, two states could literally overlap one another, while not actually claiming the same territory.

Yeah but the galaxy is a disc so there's limits to how far that goes. And any kind of warp activity is detectable from not particularly far away. Out on the outskirts of Federation space, sure, but deep in Federation space it's unlikely there are inhabitable planets the Federation that are not either inhabited or being used by the Federation for some terraforming experiment or something.
 
I don't know. Every time I listen to his "Federation are like the Borg" speech I see more and more truth to it every time.

Eddington is a college kid who just heard about the military industrial complex and acts like the victim while spray painting "phony" on the side of your car. You don't have to join the Federation. You avoid joining the Federation by saying "I don't want to join the Federation".
 
I wonder though. Suppose a species has just discovered warp, and can go no faster than warp 2 yet. But all potential nearby solar systems are in Federation space and already are taken by the Federation (either for colonisation, or for resource extraction). Other solar systems may be free, but still too far away for their technological level. Would the Federation then not hamper the natural development of that species, even if inadvertently?
 
Yeah but the galaxy is a disc so there's limits to how far that goes.
The galaxy is nearly a thousand light years thick; that is not a practical limit worth considering.

Out on the outskirts of Federation space, sure, but deep in Federation space it's unlikely there are inhabitable planets the Federation that are not either inhabited or being used by the Federation for some terraforming experiment or something.
Space is far more vast than that. As a rule of thumb, assuming that stars are, on average, 3 or 4 light years apart, then for any volume of space the number of stars in that volume will double. So if you have one star (1) and 5 light years from it there are two other stars (3) and then double the number of stars every five light years...

If that spacing is consistent, a volume of space 100 light years across could have more than one million stars, all of them still (on average) 5 light years apart.

To put that in perspective: on the whole of the planet Earth, counting all incorporated cities, towns and villages with a population of more than, say, 50 people, there is somewhere upwards of 380,000 cities and towns. We don't know the exact number, because no one has ever bothered to count them all, and not all of them are even mapped. Think about that: 380,000 cities and towns, all on a single planet, and we don't even know for sure where all of them are. TRIPPLE that number, and then imagine that every single one of those towns is on a completely different planet, and THEN imagine that you have only been charting those planets for the last, say, 75 years. Then project this onto a three dimensional volume of space that is not 100, but actually closer to, say, 400 light years thick AND there are huge unexplored regions in between them.

There you begin to see the problem. Space is BIG, planets are small, and governments, countries and nations are smaller still.
 
Instead of thinking of a civilization's territory as being contiguous, like most nations on earth, each star system should be viewed as an island, like the example above.

So, in reality, Federation, Romulan, Klingon etc... Territories could all be intermingled. Or a 3d map might look like a DNA helix with each species territory wrapping around the others.

With plenty of unclaimed stars mixed in.
 
I wonder though. Suppose a species has just discovered warp, and can go no faster than warp 2 yet. But all potential nearby solar systems are in Federation space and already are taken by the Federation
One of the novels (title?) said that that when the Starfleet finds a new civilization in federation space, even if it's "primitive," the federation will set aside several nearby star systems with compatible planets, for their eventual use.

The federation won't use them, although I don't know what the federation would do if an outside party colonized one of those systems.

Anyone remember this novel?
 
I wonder though. Suppose a species has just discovered warp, and can go no faster than warp 2 yet. But all potential nearby solar systems are in Federation space and already are taken by the Federation (either for colonisation, or for resource extraction). Other solar systems may be free, but still too far away for their technological level. Would the Federation then not hamper the natural development of that species, even if inadvertently?
By the time a species develops warp drive, they're considered 'part of the wider galaxy', and the Federation see fit to initiate first contact. At that point the prime directive no longer applies, and the Federation feel free to trade with, render aid to, and otherwise help out worlds even if they aren't Federation members. So I'm sure they could get faster warp drive if they wanted to.
 
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