ways to beat the kobayashi maru without cheating
- Thread starter WildManWizard
- Start date
Saving the Earth is something that happens at least once per spinoff. So the no-win scenario would have to be altered to match: in the 2280s, the Klingons might be in awe of Jim Kirk, but in the 2360s, they might go "huh?" with that has-been.
Separately, one wonders if Kirk's role in ST4:TVH ever was made public. Time travel is supposed to be secret and all. Okay, so perhaps it could be revealed that Kirk flew in some whales from somewhere. But probably not. "Starfleet handled the crisis" is a good way to cover the events in public, too.
Churchill or Gandhi famous? Well, googling will pervert those results from now on, but back in the days of Churchill, not many remembered the heroes of the hugely important War of Spanish Succession and were getting hazy on those of the Napoleonic Wars, too - and generally they only remembered their own. And Kirk never was a leader of that many people in any sense. But as said, googling will give everybody their 15 centuries of fame, regardless of whether it is deserved.
Timo Saloniemi
Separately, one wonders if Kirk's role in ST4:TVH ever was made public. Time travel is supposed to be secret and all. Okay, so perhaps it could be revealed that Kirk flew in some whales from somewhere. But probably not. "Starfleet handled the crisis" is a good way to cover the events in public, too.
Churchill or Gandhi famous? Well, googling will pervert those results from now on, but back in the days of Churchill, not many remembered the heroes of the hugely important War of Spanish Succession and were getting hazy on those of the Napoleonic Wars, too - and generally they only remembered their own. And Kirk never was a leader of that many people in any sense. But as said, googling will give everybody their 15 centuries of fame, regardless of whether it is deserved.
Timo Saloniemi
You could go "Wargames" and win by refusing to play the game. You can say that the artifical nature of the tests clouds test results because people will alter their behavior for a test designed to cheat. In real life nobody would ever know when your in one of those Jason
If your superior officer orders you to take the simulation and you refuse, you're being insubordinate, which is a no-no given the command isn't unreasonable in and of itself.
If you take the scenario but refuse to participate in any meaningful manner, that could be construed as insubordination.
Taking the scenario but refusing to endanger your ship in favor of a civilian vessel that may or may not even exist is simply one of many valid options.
If you take the scenario but refuse to participate in any meaningful manner, that could be construed as insubordination.
Taking the scenario but refusing to endanger your ship in favor of a civilian vessel that may or may not even exist is simply one of many valid options.
There's no correct resolution; it's a test of character
Yeah, this has always been my understanding. I'm sure that the AI that runs the KM test is smart enough to know what is needed in any given moment to overwhelm and defeat the Starfleet vessel.
I don't think they know, because otherwise it would affect their actions. Why would a cadet take the KM test seriously if they knew it was impossible? If you were told ahead of time that you were going to get an F on a test no matter how you answered, would you really try or would you goof around and have some fun with it?
Agreed. And I'm sure that the Academy has dozens or hundreds of variations on the test that all involve a "Kobayashi Maru" somehow. Maybe in some versions, it's a ship that's crash landed on a planet in hostile territory. Maybe in some it's a ship that's about to blow up unless you fix the reactor. In others, it's a ship that's transporting an ambassador over that turns out to have been taken over by an enemy. In some scenarios, it's the Klingons, in others, it's the Romulans, and sometimes it's the Orions or the Tholians. The point is to keep the command student taking the test off guard and surprised and see how they react when things go awry.
Saavik certainly didn't know the true nature of the test until she took it, and she's obviously a pretty exceptional student.
It was a Klingon trap. And the Klingons pretended to be a Federation ship to draw the Enterprise away in some TOS episode where Scotty was in command (I forget which one right now), so that sort of trick is certainly in their wheelhouse. Scotty figured out the ruse when the vessel addressed the Enterprise by name.
Ah, the Esteban Maneuver.
BTW, I always liked the idea put forth in one of the Strange New Worlds stories that when Kirk reprogrammed the KM scenario, he only made it possible to rescue the ship, not a guaranteed outcome. So he only changed the conditions of the test to make it fair and give himself a fighting chance, not an easy victory. (The Kelvin Kirk, being a cockier guy than Prime Kirk, went for the lopsided, easy victory.)
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My question was rhetorical, used to illustrate my point at the time that the program changes the circumstances depending on what you do.
Indeed, if the cadet tries to act on the assumption of it being a trap, the scenario may suddenly change so that it is not a trap and the cadet just got 300 people killed for not trying hard enough.
We have no idea whether a cadet knows going in that this is going to be her Kobayashi Maru. That is, for starters we have no idea whether a ship of that name is typically involved in the no-win test, because we only really see this test ONCE, when it applies to Jim Kirk specifically (in Prime, it's some sort of a birthday indulgence for the Admiral, so he may have programmed it to run the same way it did for him, all those years ago, and in Kelvin, it's an alternate version, not a second datapoint, and then hobby-project repeats of that alternate version, again not further datapoints); the same name may never crop up twice in the test, to keep the cadets guessing. But beyond that, we don't know if Saavik thought she was taking her final command test or her second basic navigation exam.
...Significantly, nobody ever calls the no-win test the Kobayashi Maru test unless referring specifically to Kirk's performance.
Timo Saloniemi
We have no idea whether a cadet knows going in that this is going to be her Kobayashi Maru. That is, for starters we have no idea whether a ship of that name is typically involved in the no-win test, because we only really see this test ONCE, when it applies to Jim Kirk specifically (in Prime, it's some sort of a birthday indulgence for the Admiral, so he may have programmed it to run the same way it did for him, all those years ago, and in Kelvin, it's an alternate version, not a second datapoint, and then hobby-project repeats of that alternate version, again not further datapoints); the same name may never crop up twice in the test, to keep the cadets guessing. But beyond that, we don't know if Saavik thought she was taking her final command test or her second basic navigation exam.
...Significantly, nobody ever calls the no-win test the Kobayashi Maru test unless referring specifically to Kirk's performance.
Timo Saloniemi
Spock does...
"The Kobayashi Maru scenario frequently wreaks havoc with students and equipment."
...but in such a way that implies the KM scenario might just be one of many programs (a particularly lively one) used for the test, so your point still stands.
And I do like Bones (in ST6) using Kobayashi Maru as a synonym for being completely screwed.
Using Kirk's real compatriots to perform prat death falls within the scenario kind of gives it away, or would, the moment the cadet taking the test (Saavik, this time) turns around to look. Perhaps they're counting on her being completely focused on the task at hand.
Oops! I meant to say, because they're not really getting hurt. (Or not trying to.) The simulation doesn't injure them for realism any more than paramedics participating in a mass casualty drill would break the legs of their fake patients.
That version of the story never set right with me. I think doing so would be tantamount to Kirk hiding that he had reprogrammed it, which really would be cheating and thus get himself expelled. Only by making it completely obvious do you make a statement about the no-win scenario and avoid honor code violations.
I'm sure there are plenty of other bridge simulator scenarios used for training purposes that have nothing to do with the KM, though. In this particular case it could be as simple as Spock telling Saavik ahead of time how far she's come and how he'd like to introduce her to Kirk, and that Kirk's birthday is the perfect occasion since he's already going to be visiting the academy, etc...
You probably don't know you're taking the no-win scenario until you're already in the center seat.
That would be a tragedy - a cadet thinking that's what this is and all his friends are pranking him when they "die" - only to find out the trap/attack was real.
I think just the simple act of winning would make that obvious. There would obviously be an investigation no matter what. Internal at first, as they tried to determine whether or not it was due to programmer error, and then the investigation would turn to Kirk as they uncovered evidence of tampering.
You can't let it get that far, any perceived subterfuge on Kirk's part gets him expelled. You need the first thing out of the instructors mouth to be "What the hell did you do Cadet?". So Kirk can respond with "I reprogrammed the test, I don't believe in the no win scenario." If they ever think for a second Kirk wasn't involved and then find out he was later, Kirk is done in Starfleet.
Hm? I meant that they probably know they're taking a simulation, but not which one.
Okay... So what if Kirk immediately goes to his superiors after he beats the test, explains what he did, and why he did it? Then the question becomes about addressing what he did, instead of discovering what he did.
The best way to win is to open fire on the Klingons before they open fire on you. Sure you'll start an interstellar incident. But if Starfleet's number of ships equal the Klingon Empire's, they won't go to war because it'll be Mutually Assured Destruction. Destroy the Klingon Ships before they get to the Maru and save them.
