Ways that SNW actually improved TOS

[Christopher]

I would also argue that with time and multiverse travel possible, by accident or on purpose, all sorts of temporally/universally displaced advanced tech could wind up in the hands of intelligence services, technically before they were in fact invented in one's own time/universe.

You don't need multiverse travel for that, just space travel. Any given planet a Federation starship visited could be thousands of years ahead of the Federation or behind it, if not millions of years ahead or behind. The idea that there's a single specific date when something was invented makes no sense in that context.

(One of the worst bits of human chauvinism in Star Trek is crediting Zefram Cochrane as the inventor of warp drive when the Vulcans, Andorians, and other Federation worlds had warp drive before Cochrane was even born.)

 

[Laura Cynthia Chambers]

I meant to say that you can wind up finding a copy of a device your great-great grandchild will someday invent, or that you invented yourself in a reality/at a point where your own species' technological development was greater than it is now.

Whoever's name/product name becomes (almost) synonymous with the thing itself will win the namesake game. Some people call facial tissue kleenex whatever company they may purchase the product of, because it's catchy. Or whichever product becomes the one everybody begins to use, once that person starts making their version of it. (Why they didn't call one made by humans a "Cochrane drive"? Not descriptive as to what it does, but it'd be like saying "a (name of car)" rather than "a (type of car)".)

 

[Schlegelmilch]

(One of the worst bits of human chauvinism in Star Trek is crediting Zefram Cochrane as the inventor of warp drive when the Vulcans, Andorians, and other Federation worlds had warp drive before Cochrane was even born.)

I think when Metamorphosis was written, he was intended to be the inventor for everybody.

 

[Tallguy]

I think when Metamorphosis was written, he was intended to be the inventor for everybody.

Which is why they named PLANETS after him and why he was revered throughout the GALAXY.

 

[Christopher]

I think when Metamorphosis was written, he was intended to be the inventor for everybody.

Or it was just written from a human-centric perspective. At that point, early in season 2, the Federation was still vaguely defined, and the only species other than humans that had been established as a Federation member yet was the Vulcans (and that had only been in "Errand of Mercy" four episodes previously in production order).

Either way, yes, it's clear the intent at the time was different, but the point is that later Trek productions have clearly established that humans were latecomers to warp drive compared to other Federation founder species, yet they still treat Cochrane as its inventor, despite the contradiction. So it makes much less sense now than it did back when "Metamorphosis" was made.

 

[DaveyNY]

Technically, Cochrane was the inventor of WARP Drive ... For humans on Earth.

Remember Star Fleet is Human Centric, so it makes sense that he would be revered by Earthlings.

Pretty sure that Vulcans, Andorians, Telerites and the other Federation members just roll their eyes and go along with it because Humans were the ones that brought them all together in creating the Federation to begin with.

Better to relent a little in something so obvious, than rock the boat and chance destroying the overall achievement.
All the places we have seen celebrating it, were mostly human controlled worlds.
I doubt it is celebrated on alien home planets (other than in Human embassies).
It would be like England or France acknowledging July 4th-Independence Day or Martin Luther King Day, but not celebrating it.

 

[Tallguy]

Remember Star Fleet is Human Centric, so it makes sense that he would be revered by Earthlings.

I MIGHT buy that except that it's Spock who rattles off his achievement and accolades. A man never shy about Vulcan's achievements compared to Earth's.

Also, Cochrane is the discoverer or the space warp. Not the inventor of FTL. Which, for whatever reason, is massively significant and different.

Making him just the latest or local discoverer of the space warp makes naming planets and universities after him kind of ridiculous.

Did later Trek (especially post-TNG) ignore this? Oh heck yeah they did.

 

[Laura Cynthia Chambers]

And there's also the trope of mentioning three famous people in a list of examples; one real human, one fictional human, one alien.

 

[Christopher]

Technically, Cochrane was the inventor of WARP Drive ... For humans on Earth.

Remember Star Fleet is Human Centric, so it makes sense that he would be revered by Earthlings.

Yes, that is exactly why it is bad. You're saying this as if it were a defense, but it's an indictment. In the context of the multispecies Federation as it's now defined, anything so human-centric is racist as hell. Humans in the Federation are supposed to be better than that.

Also, Cochrane is the discoverer or the space warp. Not the inventor of FTL. Which, for whatever reason, is massively significant and different.

That was the phrase they used in "Metamorphosis," but obviously later Trek has clarified that Cochrane invented humanity's warp drive. It makes no sense to ignore the later refinement of the idea and treat the early rough draft as if it were gospel. That's like insisting Kirk's middle name is Riberius.

 

[Laura Cynthia Chambers]

I submit that Mitchell nicknamed Kirk by saying "Righteous/Rigid/Reading", or some such r word is his middle name, facetiously, and the tombstone was a parting shot.

KIRK: Mister Cochrane, do you have a first name?
COCHRANE: Zefram.
KIRK: Zefram Cochrane of Alpha Centuri, the discoverer of the space warp?

You can add "As in" to Kirk's second line there. Meaning, "That Zefram Cochrane?" (So not another man whose parents liked the combo of names, or a namesake, but the man himself. The Zefram Cochrane who (among others) discovered the space warp (independent of whichever other aliens found it before he did))

 

[DaveyNY]

Yes, that is exactly why it is bad. You're saying this as if it were a defense, but it's an indictment. In the context of the multispecies Federation as it's now defined, anything so human-centric is racist as hell. Humans in the Federation are supposed to be better than that.

So is it "racist" for the USA to celebrate President's Day or Martin Luther King day when the rest of the world doesn't?
Why is it so when Humans celebrate their homegrown hero, who discovered the process to travel faster to the stars, even though it was in use before that time by others?

That seems to be more than a bit of an over exaggeration of the situation, we never see any of the other Alien member worlds actually celebrating Cochrane, just humans.

 

[Christopher]

So is it "racist" for the USA to celebrate President's Day or Martin Luther King day when the rest of the world doesn't?

That's a terrible analogy. An inventor is the first person to come up with something. It's a unique status in a way that having a birthday is not.

Why is it so when Humans celebrate their homegrown hero, who discovered the process to travel faster to the stars, even though it was in use before that time by others?

A, because it erases every other culture. B, because the writers of Trek assume that everyone, not just humans, accepts Cochrane as the inventor. The Federation and Starfleet, which are supposed to be multispecies institutions, are written as absolutely human-centric by default, which is a failure of the writing.

 

[DaveyNY]

You are just being contrary and tiresome, not going to further that ridiculous line of reasoning about a fictional TV show that you apparently take waaaay to seriously.

I'm done, Have a lovely evening.

 

[T'Bonz]

Enough, guys. Let's talk SNW without this, eh?

 

[indranee]

The whole thing is illogical. That's kind of the point, that it's a relic from the times before logic, a set of rituals so deeply ingrained as a means of coping with the mating frenzy that they can't really get rid of it. There are parts that they probably could reform, but they're so ashamed of the whole thing that they just prefer not to deal with it more than they have to, so the archaic practices remain.




Which, if true, is the very thing that destroys her as a character. If the system was designed, however illogically, to leave T'Pring with no other escape, then she's as much a victim of the system as anyone else and her actions can be read sympathetically. But if there was an easy way out of the marriage and she chose needlessly to force Spock to kill his best friend, acting purely out of vindictiveness, that's downright psychopathic.




That's not the issue. D.C. Fontana always insisted that Vulcans were sexually active outside of pon farr. The issue is having them express it in such a conventionally human way, with kissing and so forth (indeed, kissing isn't even a universal human practice), rather than the more alien way that TOS established.

My response to this would be that I have always thought of T'Pring as bordering on sadistic. She came across to me that way in TOS, and SNW deepened that impression, so I am fine with this. I never took the Kun-at-Kalifee as a "must" in terms of Vulcan ritual. I took it as HER way of using "an obscure ritual" to slide her way out of an unwanted arrangement. Remember, she already had Stonn willing and available.

I do need to rewatch Amok Time, though. I am kind of hazy as to whether Christine showed surprise at seeing T'Pring on the screen... was there a canon-violation in SNW related to that scene? I dunno. Perhaps another question for another time there.

 

[Nerys Myk]

My response to this would be that I have always thought of T'Pring as bordering on sadistic. She came across to me that way in TOS, and SNW deepened that impression, so I am fine with this. I never took the Kun-at-Kalifee as a "must" in terms of Vulcan ritual. I took it as HER way of using "an obscure ritual" to slide her way out of an unwanted arrangement. Remember, she already had Stonn willing and available.

I do need to rewatch Amok Time, though. I am kind of hazy as to whether Christine showed surprise at seeing T'Pring on the screen... was there a canon-violation in SNW related to that scene? I dunno. Perhaps another question for another time there.

It's at 23:40 if you want to jump to it. Somewhat ambiguous, in my opinion. Could be shock that Spock has a wife or bummed that it's T'Pring.

 

[Christopher]

I do need to rewatch Amok Time, though. I am kind of hazy as to whether Christine showed surprise at seeing T'Pring on the screen... was there a canon-violation in SNW related to that scene? I dunno. Perhaps another question for another time there.

There's no such thing as "canon violation," because a fictional canon is not a law or a dogma but just a set of stories, and it's the nature of stories to change in the retelling. Any long-running canon contains inconsistencies and contradictions, either accidental or intentional as the creators refine and rethink their ideas. If inconsistencies happen, then either they can be explained with a bit of cleverness or they can be shrugged off as the inevitable imperfections of any human creation. Nobody's harmed by it, so calling it a "violation" is needlessly melodramatic.

 

[indranee]

There's no such thing as "canon violation," because a fictional canon is not a law or a dogma but just a set of stories, and it's the nature of stories to change in the retelling. Any long-running canon contains inconsistencies and contradictions, either accidental or intentional as the creators refine and rethink their ideas. If inconsistencies happen, then either they can be explained with a bit of cleverness or they can be shrugged off as the inevitable imperfections of any human creation. Nobody's harmed by it, so calling it a "violation" is needlessly melodramatic.

Umm, your patronizing tone is very offensive, Christopher. Just because you have a 'writer' designation under your handle here does not give you the green light to opine on what I like or may not like in MY Trek. GTFO.

 

[indranee]

It's at 23:40 if you want to jump to it. Somewhat ambiguous, in my opinion. Could be shock that Spock has a wife or bummed that it's T'Pring.

I like your interpretation. I'll give it a rewatch at some point before SNW starts again.

 

[Tallguy]

I took it as HER way of using "an obscure ritual" to slide her way out of an unwanted arrangement.

Where is the idea that anything that goes on in Amok Time is obscure? Every indication is that this is the way it is done.