Watching Babylon 5 for the first time... *Spoilers, duh*

[Quinton O'Connor]

You're better off waiting... 5 and 6 are practically a two parter. You are NOT gonna want stop at the end of "The Long Night"

Too bad, so sad, woe is me. I just finished "The Long Night" and it's going to be a long night waiting for the next one.

Oh well. A lot of this thread's readers waited a week...

It's just the implementation of it. It sounds more like something out of one of my PlayStation-era Japanese roleplaying games than an actual scream. I would have preferred it weren't fiddled-around with. It was, wasn't it? It sounds like they did something post-production that just makes it rather corny.

It's been a while since I watched it but you may be right. My memory tells me that there may be a slight echo of the 'shadow ship scream' (for lack of a better term) added to it. Or it could be the music. JMS often played with the music to make it enhance what was being seen or heard.

Jan

Ah, that would do it. Well I'm usually supportive of his enhancements. This time it just backfired on me is all.

 

[Reverend]

^ I think half the point of that weird scream was to show she's really not Anna, or even strictly human anymore. It's not just that she was hooked up to one of those ships, she *was* one of those ships (one of the ones we've seen in action as it happens.) One of the trilogies actually depicts certain events from her perspective after she'd been joined. Think they hybrids from BSG meets...um...something that *really* delights in blowing crap up.

Speaking of the novels, I think it is now safe for you to have a look at 'The Shadow Within'.

 

[Neroon]

As someone who started the show in mid-S4 and was spoiled on everything before hand, "Z'ha'dum" is not an amazing episode for me, because it's just a bunch of exposition I already knew before hand. No shocking revelations for me, unfortunately.

That's a sound question but let me ask you this -- why is this episode not knocking out the opposition left and right in the Hurt/Heal thread? What's the matter with some people? Whatever happened to decency, to civility? I happened to think this episode was so good it almost replaced "Severed Dreams" as my favorite, popular opinion be damned! Whatever happened to truth and justice!?

THAT'S WHAT I'VE BEEN SAYING!!!

I think you both are missing a couple of key elements.

#1.) As awesome as this episode is there are others just about as impressive. That's why there is a subset of episodes clustered around the lead. It's not that one should be so far ahead of the pack but that the quality is not limited to a single episode.

#2.) Even jms himself has said there was too much exposition in the episode. However... this is more a study of characters and the relationships connecting them.
- Here we see the single greatest threat to Sheridan and Delenn.
- Also the greatest threat yet to the Army of Light, with Sheridan's death
- The mystery of Anna's death and by extension the Icarus is explained.
- the lead-up to arguably one of the greatest cliffhangers ever, with a scene so over-the-top it sends chills down an Innuit's spine
- Andreas Katsulas' voice as he recites the epilogue. 'Nuff said.

 

[Quinton O'Connor]

^ I think half the point of that weird scream was to show she's really not Anna, or even strictly human anymore. It's not just that she was hooked up to one of those ships, she *was* one of those ships (one of the ones we've seen in action as it happens.) One of the trilogies actually depicts certain events from her perspective after she'd been joined. Think they hybrids from BSG meets...um...something that *really* delights in blowing crap up.

Speaking of the novels, I think it is now safe for you to have a look at 'The Shadow Within'.

Good to know! I still need to read the first novel everyone's been yelling at me to go forth with, though...

As someone who started the show in mid-S4 and was spoiled on everything before hand, "Z'ha'dum" is not an amazing episode for me, because it's just a bunch of exposition I already knew before hand. No shocking revelations for me, unfortunately.

That's a sound question but let me ask you this -- why is this episode not knocking out the opposition left and right in the Hurt/Heal thread? What's the matter with some people? Whatever happened to decency, to civility? I happened to think this episode was so good it almost replaced "Severed Dreams" as my favorite, popular opinion be damned! Whatever happened to truth and justice!?

THAT'S WHAT I'VE BEEN SAYING!!!

I think you both are missing a couple of key elements.

#1.) As awesome as this episode is there are others just about as impressive. That's why there is a subset of episodes clustered around the lead. It's not that one should be so far ahead of the pack but that the quality is not limited to a single episode.

#2.) Even jms himself has said there was too much exposition in the episode. However... this is more a study of characters and the relationships connecting them.
- Here we see the single greatest threat to Sheridan and Delenn.
- Also the greatest threat yet to the Army of Light, with Sheridan's death
- The mystery of Anna's death and by extension the Icarus is explained.
- the lead-up to arguably one of the greatest cliffhangers ever, with a scene so over-the-top it sends chills down an Innuit's spine
- Andreas Katsulas' voice as he recites the epilogue. 'Nuff said.

Yeah, this is all great stuff!

 

[Forbin]

- Andreas Katsulas' voice as he recites the epilogue. 'Nuff said.

Good lord, I got choked up just being reminded of it. Was there ever a greater voice-over?

 

[Neroon]

- Andreas Katsulas' voice as he recites the epilogue. 'Nuff said.

Good lord, I got choked up just being reminded of it. Was there ever a greater voice-over?

As good as, probably. Better than, nope. That slight tremor in his voice with ".... in pain" nails it all together perfectly!

 

[Quinton O'Connor]

Watched "Into the Fire" but I'm way too exhausted to type up all my thoughts on these two episodes tonight. Still, having just finished skimming TheGodBen's response to the hour, and seeing numerous posters in that thread remarking that the resolution to the war is rather controversial among the show's fandom, I thought I'd get it out for my readers straight away that I really liked the way things ended.

To end a war of ideology through words, not might, seems appropriate. And to beat these races with might, not words, seems unlikely.

 

[RoJoHen]

To end a war of ideology through words, not might, seems appropriate. And to beat these races with might, not words, seems unlikely.

I was okay with the idea of how the war ended. I just didn't like the dialogue between the Shadows and the Vorlon. They were speaking like 5-year olds.

 

[Quinton O'Connor]

To end a war of ideology through words, not might, seems appropriate. And to beat these races with might, not words, seems unlikely.

I was okay with the idea of how the war ended. I just didn't like the dialogue between the Shadows and the Vorlon. They were speaking like 5-year olds.

That's a fair point and it sort of rubbed me the wrong way a little, after everything we've seen of them in the past. But on the other hand, they were speaking before Lorien, 'first of the First Ones', and I think that sort of turned them into children for a moment. And that they viewed themselves as the parents to all the younger races and then to see them show their petulance through such juvenile exposition really hit home for me.

It's like... "Yeah, you can get all high and mighty to the kids, but when your parents show up, you shut up."

 

[RoJoHen]

Yeah...I mean, I understand that, but it still kinda took me out of the moment.

Although you gotta love Sheridan's "Now get the hell out of our galaxy!"

 

[Quinton O'Connor]

I get it... you feel the same way about that that I did about the post-production tinkering with the Anna Sheridan scream at the end of "Zha'dum"; the way that comes across pulls me out of the moment, even as I accept Jan's explanation for it.

Yeah, that's a great line. Sheridan seems full of them lately.

 

[Sindatur]

Watched "Into the Fire" but I'm way too exhausted to type up all my thoughts on these two episodes tonight. Still, having just finished skimming TheGodBen's response to the hour, and seeing numerous posters in that thread remarking that the resolution to the war is rather controversial among the show's fandom, I thought I'd get it out for my readers straight away that I really liked the way things ended.

To end a war of ideology through words, not might, seems appropriate. And to beat these races with might, not words, seems unlikely.

Yes, that was JMS belief too, the AOL couldn't win through might, there was no other way for Sheridan/Delenn to win.

 

[Quinton O'Connor]

Watched "Into the Fire" but I'm way too exhausted to type up all my thoughts on these two episodes tonight. Still, having just finished skimming TheGodBen's response to the hour, and seeing numerous posters in that thread remarking that the resolution to the war is rather controversial among the show's fandom, I thought I'd get it out for my readers straight away that I really liked the way things ended.

To end a war of ideology through words, not might, seems appropriate. And to beat these races with might, not words, seems unlikely.

Yes, that was JMS belief too, the AOL couldn't win through might, there was no other way for Sheridan/Delenn to win.

Wait, what does America Online have to do with...

...oh, nevermind.

 

[Neroon]

A great many people do not care for the line. Me... well, I rather enjoyed it. The idea and the line itself were different from much of what I'd seen in other shows.

 

[Mr Light]

Jeff, welcome to the 1.72 season long epilogue to the series "Into the Fire", for me, was the climax of the entire show, and everything is downhill from there. As Delenn says at the end of the episode, it feels like the magic is gone.

Don't get me wrong there's some great stuff in Season Four. Season Five, not so much. But for me the show was ABOUT the Shadows and the Vorlons. With them gone... it is so much less. Anything after that can only be horribly anti-climactic.

I don't know if you're aware of this yet, but at the start of Season Four JMS was told that he would not be getting a fifth year, so he decided to compress the story into a single season. That's why the Shadow War ends so abruptly only six episodes in. And then, after Season Four was done, the show was picked up by TNT (formerly it was airing in broadcast syndication), so suddenly he had a whole extra year but he already used up most of his story. One of the many reasons fans aren't so happy with the final year.

 

[Seven of Five]

When I saw the conclusion to the Shadow storyline, I was a bit shocked that it had ended so soon, and I worried for the future. In retrospect, the worry was totally unnecessary.

The story works better ending at this point as the momentum by this point is huge, and the timing feels right. And believe me, this is Babylon 5 - there is a hell of a lot more amazing stuff around the corner.

 

[Aeon]

For a moment the universe of Babylon 5 certainly seemed to be a more quiet place than before. The parents moved out of the house and now the children were alone, making up their own luck and their magic.

A nice break before things go boom!

 

[Forbin]

You know what happens when you leave the kids alone in the house.

Only this time it doesn't involve Molly Ringwald.

 

[JoeD80]

I was okay with the idea of how the war ended. I just didn't like the dialogue between the Shadows and the Vorlon. They were speaking like 5-year olds.

Well they kind of mentally regressed to that point, forgetting what they were there for and throwing tantrums and blowing up planets and such.

And then, after Season Four was done, the show was picked up by TNT (formerly it was airing in broadcast syndication), so suddenly he had a whole extra year but he already used up most of his story. One of the many reasons fans aren't so happy with the final year.

Certainly the balance would have been a little different if the season five renewal had come earlier, but there are a few key pieces of season five that were always going to be there, which can be gleaned from some of the notes and comments Joe has made in the script books:

Spoiler: all of season five

Byron was going to be there, albeit Ivanova was supposed to be there as well; set-up for the telepath war and the bombing of Psi Corps was going to be there as seen in the ancillary notes in the Artifacts book; Londo was always going to be Emperor in the final season; Sheridan would be dealing with the Alliance and trying to manage multiple races; Garibaldi would be drinking; and according to JMS in the script books, Movements of Fire and Shadow/The Fall of Centauri Prime was the whole point of having a five-year arc; to build up a sense of dread to that moment.

 

[Angel4576]

"Into the Fire", for me, was the climax of the entire show, and everything is downhill from there.

I wouldn't agree with that. I can see why you might feel that way, but for me, it was never just about the Vorlons and Shadows.

IMO, the best is still yet to come......