Watching Babylon 5 for the first time... *Spoilers, duh*

[Jan]

There are no Blu-Ray versions (yet?), but I'm not sure they'd look too terrible.

Sadly, JMS doesn't seem to think it'll happen. Recently he posted this answer to the question on his Fans of J. Michael Straczynski Facebook page:

Originally Posted by Fans of J. Michael Straczynski
It's not so much that the CGI masters were destroyed...it's that they were rendered at a standard aspect ratio for TVs at the time. The show was shot on what was essentially widescreen (the first TV series to do so, if I recall) but the tech wasn't there to produce the CGI in the same aspect ratio. (This was something I didn't actually know or realize at the time; I assumed it was being rendered wide.)

So the only way to integrate the CGI with the wider-aspect DVD release was to blow it up and crop, which was a far from satisfactory solution. It would be pretty much impossible to go back and try to re-render every single shot in widescreen, even now, to make this work.

The only way you could do it would be to do what they did in ST, which was to render all new EFX. The problem we'd have is that while an average ep of the original Trek had maybe a dozen or two effects shots in an episode, we had anywhere from 30 to, in a few extreme cases, a hundred shots in a single episode, many of which were composites using both live-action and blue-screen elements. So it would cost several times more to create new CGI for B5 than it cost for ST (which only had three seasons, vs. our five, which on its own would nearly double the cost even if our efx were no more than theirs.)

So I think, barring a miracle, that it's a dead issue.

Jan

 

[Quinton O'Connor]

DVD is more than enough for me!

 

[Reverend]

I wonder if anyone has told JMS yet that they could have rendered the original shots in widescreen if only Netter had been willing to shell out a couple grand for a special monitor for the VFX team. I doubt he'd be terribly impressed!

Not that'd it'd make a Blu-ray release more feasible of course since the renders were still done in a fairly low resolution by today's standards.

Still, I hold out a small hope that WB will one day spring for the cost of redoing the effects on at least one of the movies...'In the Beginning' say...

This thread has motivated me to rewatch the series, which I just saw for the first time about 2 years ago. There are no Blu-Ray versions (yet?), but I'm not sure they'd look too terrible. I'm watching the DVDs on my 50" plasma and they look great!

The only real problem with the DVDs is some of the effects shots, though most especially those that involve comping live action into a CG background. In those instances things can take a very noticeable drop in quality. The reason being that, while all the other love action shots were filmed in widescreen and transfer over fine, as the quote Jan posted indicates, the comp shots were done in 4:3 (?) so in order to keep them in line with the rest of the footage they were cropped down. Some aren't so bad but there's a few notable instances where it looks horrendous.

 

[Jan]

I wonder if anyone has told JMS yet that they could have rendered the original shots in widescreen if only Netter had been willing to shell out a couple grand for a special monitor for the VFX team. I doubt he'd be terribly impressed!

Not that'd it'd make a Blu-ray release more feasible of course since the renders were still done in a fairly low resolution by today's standards.

Yeah, TripleF who did the Babylon scrolls site posted that. It seemed that JMS did know now but hadn't at the time.

Jan

 

[RoJoHen]

Some aren't so bad but there's a few notable instances where it looks horrendous.

Oh yeah, I totally agree, but overall I think it would look all right.

Frankly, though, there are other shows I'd much rather see get a Blu-Ray treatment before B5. Namely, Farscape.

 

[Triple-F]

On that same facebook thread Jan quoted from above, jms was directed to the comments Ron Thornton made about the widescreen do-da and the purchase of a suitable monitor.
http://www.themadgoner.com/B5/B5Scrolls/B5Scrolls.htm#Screen1_01_3

The widescreen conversion thing was executive short sightedness at it's finest!!! We offered to do ALL of Babylon 5 in widescreen mode if Warner Bros would buy us a reference monitor so we could check our output. (only $5000 at the time) Ken Parkes (the "Business affairs" guy) and Netter (penny wise, but pound foolish) said no! So we did everything so it could be CROPPED to be widescreen! Each blamed the other by the way. Doug Netter said, "Ken Parkes said no". Ken Parkes said, "Doug Netter said no". SHEESH!!! So for $75 an episode they could've had AWESOME near Hi-Def. Bet Joe never heard about that!!

He confirmed what Thornton suspected. Nobody told jms (at the time) it could be done widescreen, Netter and/or WB were just penny pinching.
http://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=169358099765728&id=139652459402959

And yes, the interview is correct: no one told me about the decision that prevented us from making the CGI in 16:9. Because they knew that if they had, I would've gone apeshit. Hell, I would've happily paid for it out of my own pocket. Instead, they told me that it couldn't be done, and stupidly, I believed them.

edit
I take too long to type stuff, just noticed jans reply. : )

John Copeland had a fair bit to say about the whole wide screen do-ad as well. It boiled down to Warner penny pinching, for a second time, when it came to incorporating the cropped CG and composite shots into widescreen. So even the cropped scenes could/should have looked better (though still not perfect) if they followed the plan the production was forced into after sneakily deciding not to shoot the CG in 16:9.
http://www.themadgoner.com/B5/B5Scrolls/B5Scrolls.htm#Screen1_07_4

With regard to the VFX. We just couldn't double render stuff in two aspect ratios, no time. But at the end of every season we delivered all the VFX shots for each episode on a exabyte tape (the precursor to DLT) which WB were supposed to run through a "black box" - actually an early TerranX - to upres them and then cut them into the retransferred shows in 16x9 for home video release. For whatever reason, they didn't do it. I think Warren Leiberfarb, then head of Warners Home Video wouldn't authorize the expense for this. . . . . . . They did another video hack and simply used a digital post production device like a DVE (Digital Video Enhancer) to blow the material up. They essentially stretched it approximately 1/3 to fill the larger aspect ratio. . . . . . . . . .
. . . .. . In fact the filmed 16x9 versions - Warners had even forgotten that they had those. They used PAL versions and converted them to NTSC for the US market. They actually didn't go back and retransfer the shows.

 

[Neroon]

Nice to meet you, Triple-F and thanks for the information. You're a good anla'shok.

 

[Forbin]

The reason being that, while all the other love action shots were filmed in widescreen and transfer over fine, as the quote Jan posted indicates, the comp shots were done in 4:3 (?) so in order to keep them in line with the rest of the footage they were cropped down. Some aren't so bad but there's a few notable instances where it looks horrendous.

I wanna hear more about the love-action shots!

 

[Mr Light]

I thought those were only in "Secrets of the Soul".

Unless those rumors about "Divided Loyalties" are correct

 

[Gov Kodos]

The reason being that, while all the other love action shots were filmed in widescreen and transfer over fine, as the quote Jan posted indicates, the comp shots were done in 4:3 (?) so in order to keep them in line with the rest of the footage they were cropped down. Some aren't so bad but there's a few notable instances where it looks horrendous.

I wanna hear more about the love-action shots!

Maybe it involves Pat Tallman's underwear?

 

[Neroon]

Now there's a story that Jeff is sure to be interested in. But I'll let Forbin tell it.

 

[Aeon]

Meanwhile, after slumping ratings brought on by alleged franchise fatigue, the station is dormant of any Vorlon activity for some time before a successful reboot with a darker, edgier nuKosh.

This new Vorlon is almost like a return to the beginning when the old Kosh was acting like a dickbag. He really softened up and became more caring after Sheridan arrived, don't you think?

 

[Ridcully]

Ah never mind the effectshots....those are on an endless spiral anyways.

The story and the whole thing still works...
A classic series for sure

The "new" Kosh is just how they usually are behaving....arrogant bastards
No better than the Shadows!
Haha

 

[Forbin]

Now there's a story that Jeff is sure to be interested in. But I'll let Forbin tell it.

Which? What? Where?

Now I have to go watch Knightriders again...

 

[Quinton O'Connor]

Meanwhile, after slumping ratings brought on by alleged franchise fatigue, the station is dormant of any Vorlon activity for some time before a successful reboot with a darker, edgier nuKosh.

This new Vorlon is almost like a return to the beginning when the old Kosh was acting like a dickbag. He really softened up and became more caring after Sheridan arrived, don't you think?

Yeah, Kosh was shown in a more benevolent light from season two onward. This one definitely strikes me as a return to the Kosh from season one.

In other news, I watched the "War Without End" two-parter last night. When I make the time to, I'll be drumming up my thoughts, but for now I'll leave you with this small prophecy:

"In Valen's name!"

 

[Quinton O'Connor]

"War Without End"
Parts I and II, baby

Let me start out by saying I'm glad JMS decided this arc would be the only one in which the overused time travel element would be placed inside his science fiction story, not so much because I have any particular hatred toward it as I'm really impressed with what all was done here and anything more would be pushing it.

Wow. I've seen a lot of folks describe these two episodes as the 'thread that holds everything together', and now I see why. And if any of this is somehow spoiled with "In the Beginning", well, I'm damned glad I haven't gone near that one just yet.

Sinclair is Valen! This was planned since the dawn of the franchise, wasn't it? JMS seems to insinuate as such and now I can totally see why he felt he'd written the character into a corner. Not to mention how over-the-top it would have been if Sinclair's story revolved around both the Minbari and the Shadows. Talk about a ridiculously gets-around kind of guy, in that case. But this... this is just right. This is perfect, really. A Minbari not of Minbar... to quote TGB's rendition of Delenn, 'no Sherlock, shithead!'

I'd be a little confused about the origins of the Chrysalis machine if it hadn't been for The Lurker's Guide, though. When the second hour had ended, a few things were buzzing around in my brain as byproducts of the ol' infinite loop, one of which being the machine. Where the hell did it come from? I found myself asking. And which came first, the chicken or the egg? The heist of Babylon 4, when it first took place in this loop... oh man, it hurts my head a little bit, it does. How did that happen?

And yet it all clicks so smoothly in a weird, funky way. I'm impressed.

Sheridan's scenes in the future with Londo and his 'keeper' were terrifying. Peter Jurasik did an exceptional job in his speech to Sheridan when he let him and Delenn escape. Seeing Big Boss... I mean, G'Kar, fulfill Londo's vision was a highlight of everything. And giving Sheridan his inevitable first kiss with Delenn when in actuality it's more like the ten thousandth for her is just toying with the fire that is time travel, JMS. But keep on toying on, because that's hilarious.

I liked Zathras much more this time around, by the way. Since I started this thread around 2x08, I never had a chance to mention how little I cared for his character in "Babylon Squared" and how that held back the episode a bit. I'm all for comedic characters but he felt a little too overdone. Not as bad as the 'VCR' from early season one (nightmares of that) but just not all that funny. Here, he had plenty of opportunities to shine with a much better script.

Poor Garibaldi. He'll never have a proper chance to say goodbye. I loved the password-guessing segment. There's a reference to one of the funniest scenes in the show when he mentions a couple of ties to the fastening of one's pants.

Something about Michael O'Hare's acting, mainly in the first part, really distracted me -- he would not stop blinking. I can't be the only person to have noticed this. I just can't be. Did he have something in his eyes? Allergies, maybe? Or was this part of his big Hollywood vision of excellence? I'm really confused. It was toned down quite a bit in the second half but I think that might just be the brilliant Mike Vejar recognizing the issue and not zooming in on his face so often.

One last thing.

Catherine. Sakai. Where the hell. Is she?

 

[Triple-F]

"War Without End"
Parts I and II, baby

Sinclair is Valen! This was planned since the dawn of the franchise, wasn't it?

Nup.

The first season of the show was getting really panned by the critics when it was first shown. O’Hare, the lack of action and the script were the main focus of all that - it was no surprise that changes took place to be honest.

In the memo that appears in the 15th script book you see that jms (at one point) had the station moving forward in time to replace B5 which had been destroyed by the Minbari Warrior cast!! The connection between Valen and Sinclair was a later idea.

The way it eventually played out was far more interesting than the original idea, and more than anything, demonstrates jms's impressive ability to fit things together to make a coherent story (Sinclair and Delenn have a kid that becomes some kind of religious leader unifying the Humans and Minbari!!?!). For example in the special edition of the Pilot movie Kosh recognising Sinclair as Valen is dubbed in (In the orginal he doesn't say anything to him).

 

[Quinton O'Connor]

Oh, I could have sworn it was pre-planned. Well in this case, like you said, it just goes to show how good JMS can be at piecing things together.

I can see why the first half of season one would be blasted for its script, but there was sufficient action for me, at least. The problem is, all the action early on was hokey and looked like it belonged on Kung Fu: The Legend Continues instead, sans the more impressive martial arts of that one.

 

[Mr Light]

The novel "To Dream in the City of Sorrows" shows what Sinclair did on Minbar during Season Two and Three. It also shows what happened to Catherine Sakai and "introduces" Marcus into the story. It's pretty good. Definitely the best non-trilogy B5 novel. Once you finish Season Three you'd be safe to read it.

 

[Quinton O'Connor]

The novel "To Dream in the City of Sorrows" shows what Sinclair did on Minbar during Season Two and Three. It also shows the fate of Catherine Sakai and "introduces" Marcus into the story. It's pretty good. Definitely the best non-trilogy B5 novel. Once you finish Season Three you'd be safe to read it.

If I weren't undoubtedly going to be in a rush to race onward to season four, I'd be more inclined to stop and read it.

Maybe I'll do both at once.