Was Worf/Kurn's Mok'tovah murder in your eyes?

It wouldn't have been to me, since to Klingons it is normal. Ben Sisko is a god, but he seemed to judgmental here. The only wrong here, as Worf himself said, was violating Starfleet regulations.

Besides, Sisko as a human should know that not all human cultures have had the same views on the morality of killing. Even today, it is not so black and white, since technical homicide is not always deemed a murder in every culture.

 

It was assisted suicide on Worf's part. In my eyes, the memory erasure, the cosmetic surgery, and giving Kurn a new identity was no different than murder.

 

Not in my eyes, it's all legit in the Klingon culture for good or ill.

 

So you die when you lose your memory?

 

"You" do, for what are we other than the sum of our memories?

 

Would it be euthanasia instead of assisted suicide, since Worf was the one ending the life? I support euthanasia and considering the value of honour in Klingon culture I guess I can accept a loss of it as an acceptable reason to end someone's life.

That said, I don't have a problem with Sisko's reaction. Worf was going to murder Kurn in not only Sisko's eyes but the Federation's as well. DS9 was under Federation control and their rules came with it. Worf can't go around killing people willy-nilly, just like Quark can't force his employees to have sex with him by making them contractually obligated. You can respect other cultures' customs, but when they away from home they still have to adapt in some ways to the home culture's views and laws. In this case Worf was going a step too far for Sisko.

I was surprised a bit by Dax's reaction given how Klingon happy she was at times, but I guess she knew that if Worf succeeded that he would likely get kicked out of Starfleet and maybe go to gaol as well.

 

This is an acceptable part of Klingon tradition, so no, it cannot by definition be murder. Starfleet has no jurisdiction in the matter, since Kurn was not in Starfleet - and furthermore, he had every right to request that Worf help him (since they are brothers), so the Prime Directive does not apply even though Worf is a Federation citizen and Starfleet officer.

 

The Ritual suicide thing, I had no problem with. Cultures have those things, and Kurn was well within his rights as a Klingon citizen (as well as Worf, being a duel citizen) to do it.

What I DO have a problem with, was Worf mindwiping Kurn without his permission and making him think he was someone else.

And what's worse, when Worf's honor was restored he never even thought about Kurn with a "Oh damn, maybe I was a bit hasty in that mindwiping thing especially since now our family is tight with the new Chancellor."

It was a "Out of Sight, out of mind" thing, which was WAY OOC for Worf.

 

I realize this may be way the hell out in the realm of speculation, but perhaps Kurn *did* consent to a memory wipe? In a very real sense, it would still fulfill the ceremony - Kurn, himself, would be dead, replaced by Rodek. Plus: He would never remember it anyway.

 

On the contrary. It was totally in character for Worf judging by the way he treated his son.

 

...Yeah, but it wasn't until DS9 that we found out he abandoned (and there is no way out of this, it was abandonment) Alexander.

Geez, Worf was way OOC in DS9 towards his own family, wasn't he?

 

As far as I'm concerned, Kurn had the right to ask Worf and Worf had the right to fulfill his brother's wishes. The Klingons would "consider the matter closed."

My only problem was Worf's extreme shortsightedness. Between Picard giving him a dressing down after he killed Duras and the raid by Riker and security when he was burning some incense in his quarters on the Enterprise, I would have thought that Worf, the elder brother of the House of Mogh, strategic operations officer of the second most important sector of the alpha quadrant, and commander of the Defiant, would have stopped for a minute, sat down with Kurn over some Rokeg blood pie and bottles of prune juice and blood wine, and planned some leave time to maybe hash out this whole Mok'tovah thing away from Deep Space Nine out of uniform, off-duty, and out of sight.

Sisko wouldn't have had a problem with this at all .. he let Jadzia off the hook for keeping Kurzon's blood oath of vengeance and neither Kurzon nor Jadzia were even Klingon. But she didn't do it on the Starfleet administered, Bajoran space station she was posted to.

But dude --- in your quarters? On Deep Space Nine? And asking the Ferrengi bartender for the incense for the ceremony?

Worf was asking to get caught. Hmm...maybe that's what he wanted because he really didn't want to kill Kurn.

As far as the memory wipe, I consider that murder, and I will go out on a limb and say that Kurn and other Klingons would consider it a dishonor. Kurn wasn't killed in glorious battle or ritual suicide. He was robbed of his honorable death by erasing everything he was, or worse, keeping him prisoner in the shell of Rodek. Worf didn't even give him the death howl. Gowron got a more honorable death -- hell, Duras did (no death howl there, though .. fine with me).

Worf was both un-Starfleet and un-Klingon all around.

Edit to add: And to add insult to injury, fracking Bashir goes along with it!!!! I guess anyone can just take a visit to the infirmary, ask Bashir to erase their brother's memory and, for a small fee, it's done. Rom could have had Quark's bar years ago!

 

And like I said, when Worf gets his honor restored he never even bothers to think about Kurn and go "Uh...maybe that mindwipe thing wasn't such a good idea..."

 

Exactly how I always felt. Would it have been so hard to ask for some leave and do the deed on some backwater planet? For that matter, why is this option never even brought up after Dax and Odo stop the ritual?

As for what I think about the Mok'tovah itself - it's no different than assisted suicide/euthanasia, so I don't have a problem with it, especially since both Kurn and the Empire at large approve of it.

 

May chime in here? One must consider that to judge a culture by your own culture,s standards HAS been considered to at best prejudical. Different cultures don't (and should not) have the same standards that we do. Also I have notice that some people tend to forget(generally speaking) the old addage "When in Rome do as the Romans do" Especially when they visit another country that has different standards.

 

I understand respecting the culture and decisions of others. What baffles me is that when a question likes this comes up, many people basically say "Their culture doesn't have a problem with it so I don't have a problem with it." Just because an individual or a group approve of something does not mean it's wrong to disapprove. There are people out there who approve of mass murder and racism and child abuse.

I've always find Klingon 'honor' and it's rituals inane and laughable. "Nobody likes me and they think I'm dishonorable. I guess I'll kill myself." Cowards.

 

After all, Worf himself never even considered suicide. And given how he redeemed himself and could have been the freaking Chancellor if he wanted to be, I don't think his and Kurn's situation was as bad as Kurn made it out to be.

 

I'm more bothered by the fact Doctor Bashir agreed to do the procedure WITHOUT patient consent.

Dax was surprisingly anti-Klingon, considering her own relationship with honor and blood oaths. Funny that she objected to Worf assisting a willing Kurn in suicide but had no problem with Worf destroying all of Kurn's memories without his permission. I guess for Dax, the important thing is that the flesh and organs go on.

Would she have minded if Worf said he was going to chop up enough of Kurn's brain to leave him a vegetable, but his mindless body would live on for decades so it's cool?

Strange episode. Especially since in about a year or two Worf would be made a part of Martok's house, an esteemed general who would later rule the freaking empire. Too bad Kurn is living in some backwoods somewhere, chopping wood. If he'd been allowed to keep his memories for another minute, he's likely have been given a fleet to command with his honor restored under Martok.

 

Unless, of course, one of her previous hosts had a blood oath against someone. Then she's perfectly willing to help others murder that someone in cold blood.

 

They were hardly in the same situation. Worf was living outside the Empire, serving in Starfleet and while he was the head of the house he didn't seem to take part in the duties it entailed. Worf wouldn't have felt suicidal because his life was barely impacted by his decision.

Kurn on the other hand was pretty much running their house. He was respected and influential member of society and Worf's action saw him instantly reduced to nothing. That includes his honour and Kurn is a true Klingon where whether his people considered him honourable or not really was the be all and end all of things.

Again it comes down to culture, to a Klingon it is the worst thing that could ever happen.