was this smooth?

[iguana_tonante]

Hmm...personally, I would have been bothered.

But I am one of those who is generally bugged ANY time a guy thinks they're actually going to get me to go out with them when I've barely even talked to them ONCE, let alone even formed a friendship with me. Excessive forwardness in men is not something I care for, as (to me) it reads as a lack of self-restraint and respect towards others. A guy had better get to know me first and DARNED well had better do it in a genuine manner and not just to try and sleep with me.

Someone telling you that you're beautiful is bothersome and shows a lack of respect and restraint? It's not like he used some rude and overtly sexual one-liner, he paid her a nice - albeit somewhat cheesy - compliment that doesn't require any kind of quid pro quo beyond a simple "thank you" at most if that's all she's comfortable with.

Jeez, and some people wonder why guys often get nervous about having to make a first move.

In a sense, I can understand Nerys Ghemor: there are lot of sleazy dogs around, that see girls as no more than fresh meat. So I can understand her attitude, even if I don't like the (implicit) implication that all men are like that.

On the other hand, I am sometimes shocked at the level of prudishness expressed by some people, especially in the Anglo-Saxon culture of the US. I freely admit that probably there is a cultural bias on my part, too, being Italian and all. I had people telling me that complimenting a woman is inappropriate, that I should not flirt to girls because it's "creepy" and "wrong", yet at the same time, I have yet to find a girl that did not appreciate it when I'm talking nice to her. So what is that? I don't go around making moves for bedding girls all the time, but a bit of flirting is not a bad thing. It's fun. Relax, people. You'll have a much better time with people.

 

[Trekker4747]

Hmm...personally, I would have been bothered.

But I am one of those who is generally bugged ANY time a guy thinks they're actually going to get me to go out with them when I've barely even talked to them ONCE, let alone even formed a friendship with me. Excessive forwardness in men is not something I care for, as (to me) it reads as a lack of self-restraint and respect towards others. A guy had better get to know me first and DARNED well had better do it in a genuine manner and not just to try and sleep with me.

Someone telling you that you're beautiful is bothersome and shows a lack of respect and restraint? It's not like he used some rude and overtly sexual one-liner, he paid her a nice - albeit somewhat cheesy - compliment that doesn't require any kind of quid pro quo beyond a simple "thank you" at most if that's all she's comfortable with.

Jeez, and some people wonder why guys often get nervous about having to make a first move.

I'd think a "How are you doing?" would carry a lot more weight in a more social setting than a sidle-up with cheesy one liner while the poor girl is at work. Depending on the... extent of her "BBW"-ness it may be something she has to deal with all of the time.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

there are lot of sleazy gods around

Hey now, let's leave Priapus out of this. It's not his fault. Contrary to myth, in a moment of pity Zeus gave him some Olympian strength Viagra to cure his impotence and things just sort of went downhill (or uphill) from there.

[edit] Dammit, you changed it to "dogs."

Hmm...personally, I would have been bothered.

But I am one of those who is generally bugged ANY time a guy thinks they're actually going to get me to go out with them when I've barely even talked to them ONCE, let alone even formed a friendship with me. Excessive forwardness in men is not something I care for, as (to me) it reads as a lack of self-restraint and respect towards others. A guy had better get to know me first and DARNED well had better do it in a genuine manner and not just to try and sleep with me.

Someone telling you that you're beautiful is bothersome and shows a lack of respect and restraint? It's not like he used some rude and overtly sexual one-liner, he paid her a nice - albeit somewhat cheesy - compliment that doesn't require any kind of quid pro quo beyond a simple "thank you" at most if that's all she's comfortable with.

Jeez, and some people wonder why guys often get nervous about having to make a first move.

I'd think a "How are you doing?" would carry a lot more weight in a more social setting than a sidle-up with cheesy one liner while the poor girl is at work. Depending on the... extent of her "BBW"-ness it may be something she has to deal with all of the time.

If I was saying it was the best opening line in the world I wouldn't have called it "cheesy," would I? It's a far cry from not being "smooth" to quote the OP, to being bothersome, disrespectful, and lacking restraint. That's what I took issue with.

 

[JonathonWally]

Hmm...personally, I would have been bothered.

But I am one of those who is generally bugged ANY time a guy thinks they're actually going to get me to go out with them when I've barely even talked to them ONCE, let alone even formed a friendship with me. Excessive forwardness in men is not something I care for, as (to me) it reads as a lack of self-restraint and respect towards others. A guy had better get to know me first and DARNED well had better do it in a genuine manner and not just to try and sleep with me.

Someone telling you that you're beautiful is bothersome and shows a lack of respect and restraint? It's not like he used some rude and overtly sexual one-liner, he paid her a nice - albeit somewhat cheesy - compliment that doesn't require any kind of quid pro quo beyond a simple "thank you" at most if that's all she's comfortable with.

Jeez, and some people wonder why guys often get nervous about having to make a first move.

In a sense, I can understand Nerys Ghemor: there are lot of sleazy dogs around, that see girls as no more than fresh meat. So I can understand her attitude, even if I don't like the (implicit) implication that all men are like that.

On the other hand, I am sometimes shocked at the level of prudishness expressed by some people, especially in the Anglo-Saxon culture of the US. I freely admit that probably there is a cultural bias on my part, too, being Italian and all. I had people telling me that complimenting a woman is inappropriate, that I should not flirt to girls because it's "creepy" and "wrong", yet at the same time, I have yet to find a girl that did not appreciate it when I'm talking nice to her. So what is that? I don't go around making moves for bedding girls all the time, but a bit of flirting is not a bad thing. It's fun. Relax, people. You'll have a much better time with people.

Not only cultural, but genetic. It's an Italian thing. I flirt with everyone, whether conscience of it or not. I'm shameless like that. Can't help it or anything, just how I was raised and how I am, I like talking to everyone and always say something nice.

I always like it when someone says something nice to me, so I always say something nice to people, especially strangers.

Just because I talk to you, doesn't mean I want to sleep with you though.

Maybe it's your (collective you) problem if you think everyone who talks to you is only trying to bed you.

I'd think a "How are you doing?" would carry a lot more weight in a more social setting ...

No, it's "How you doin?"

 

[iguana_tonante]

there are lot of sleazy gods around

Hey now, let's leave Priapus out of this. It's not his fault. Contrary to myth, in a moment of pity Zeus gave him some Olympian strength Viagra to cure his impotence and things just sort of went downhill (or uphill) from there.

[edit] Dammit, you changed it to "dogs."

Sorry, it was a really bad typo and i corrected it as soon as I saw it! But I almost spurted my coffee when I read your reply, if it helps.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

It does. Thank you.

 

[Elmo Dukat]

Hambeast? Fat chicks?

I see the culturally-instilled disgust of fat women is as cleverly-delivered as ever!

I'm sure it's okay to name-call, humiliate, or stereotype whole groups of people, and then just say, "Diff'rent strokes" and I'm absolved of my bigotry, right?

We're all attracted to different people. But to pretend that a group of people is some how generally more inherently disgusting and unattractive than another is the definition of bigotry, and it's the height of ignorance. The plain fact is, the thin "ideal" has only been an "ideal" for the past 100 years or so. That's a pretty small fraction of human history.

And maybe Rycher was able to impress her more easily because she was a "fat chick," but did you ever think why that might be the case? Oh, maybe because "fat chicks" are degraded, hated, and discriminated against every day of their damn lives and a hint of simple chivalry is, to them, in stark contrast to the kind of treatment they receive regularly from people like some of the posters in this thread?

Maybe you should keep your hate to yourself and, like Rycher, try to be, oh, nice to other people. I think he sets a fine example. You don't need to hit on or compliment other people if you're not attracted to them, but it would be a great improvement to the world if your disgust and bigotry weren't worn so plainly on your sleeve.

 

[JoeZhang]

There is a combination of facts

Self-esteem - if she had low self-esteem, she'd take some sleezy comments better than someone with some self-respect.

Your attractiveness - nobody wants to be hit on by fat ugly people, even other fat ugly people.

Your visual signs of affluence - Does it look like you have money?

There is a tension between those three factors, however if you have plenty of cash, you can get most women to go at it like a shithouse door in a storm. I've certainly found that as I've become wealthier it's easier to get people into bed.

Men are different, you just have to say "want to have sex?" and they just go "yes/no".

 

[the 4th hanson bro]

Hambeast? Fat chicks?

I see the culturally-instilled disgust of fat women is as cleverly-delivered as ever!

I'm sure it's okay to name-call, humiliate, or stereotype whole groups of people, and then just say, "Diff'rent strokes" and I'm absolved of my bigotry, right?

We're all attracted to different people. But to pretend that a group of people is some how generally more inherently disgusting and unattractive than another is the definition of bigotry, and it's the height of ignorance. The plain fact is, the thin "ideal" has only been an "ideal" for the past 100 years or so. That's a pretty small fraction of human history.

And maybe Rycher was able to impress her more easily because she was a "fat chick," but did you ever think why that might be the case? Oh, maybe because "fat chicks" are degraded, hated, and discriminated against every day of their damn lives and a hint of simple chivalry is, to them, in stark contrast to the kind of treatment they receive regularly from people like some of the posters in this thread?

Maybe you should keep your hate to yourself and, like Rycher, try to be, oh, nice to other people. I think he sets a fine example. You don't need to hit on or compliment other people if you're not attracted to them, but it would be a great improvement to the world if your disgust and bigotry weren't worn so plainly on your sleeve.

I'm not into "bigot."

That's fine.

I'm not a bigot.

Aaaand let's leave it at that, guys. Thank you.

And I'm having a hard time reconciling these posts. One just doesn't belong.

Changing your focus from a single poster to society writ large doesn't change much. Elmo, I understand this is a hot button issue for you, but continuing to rant about society's bigotry towards fat people after you'd been asked not to is unacceptable.

If you want to start a thread about fat acceptance or cultural norms and ideals, fell free.

 

[Worf412]

The plain fact is, the thin "ideal" has only been an "ideal" for the past 100 years or so. That's a pretty small fraction of human history.

That's because, prior to the past 100 years or so, being overweight meant that your family could afford food (thus, rich). It wasn't that plump women were seen as particularly attractive above and beyond their slender contemporaries - their bank accounts (so to speak) were.

Knowing what we now know about the negative health effects of being overweight, it has become seen as a less desirable condition. Especially when (for example, although there are others) a person who has shown no obese tendencies balloons up over a relatively short period, some can only think that this person has decided to quit taking care of themselves. Same with a hefty person who comes from a rather skinny family - some can only think they do not care about their appearance/upkeep.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Hmm...personally, I would have been bothered.

But I am one of those who is generally bugged ANY time a guy thinks they're actually going to get me to go out with them when I've barely even talked to them ONCE, let alone even formed a friendship with me. Excessive forwardness in men is not something I care for, as (to me) it reads as a lack of self-restraint and respect towards others. A guy had better get to know me first and DARNED well had better do it in a genuine manner and not just to try and sleep with me.

Someone telling you that you're beautiful is bothersome and shows a lack of respect and restraint? It's not like he used some rude and overtly sexual one-liner, he paid her a nice - albeit somewhat cheesy - compliment that doesn't require any kind of quid pro quo beyond a simple "thank you" at most if that's all she's comfortable with.

Jeez, and some people wonder why guys often get nervous about having to make a first move.

I'm not quite so bothered by a simple observation and I will just respond politely (I may have told you what I think of it internally, but I am not going to just insult somebody--I am not anywhere near as ill-mannered as you seem to think)--but if I think some guy is trying to put the moves on me when they don't even know me...I DO think that's disrespectful. Get to know me first. I've had stuff like this at work where I've actually been asked for my phone number and gotten dinner invites from customers I've literally helped just once and not shown any interest other than the friendliness that is a matter of proper customer service. I find that WAY over the top.

Sometimes if someone seems to be commenting too much on my appearance who doesn't know me, I feel like it's headed that way and it does make me uncomfortable. Like I said, I'm not going to insult them or say anything to hurt their feelings but I'm also not going to go along willingly with them into whatever it is they want. I want to see that a guy is capable of getting to know me as a person, and holding off until there's a relationship on that level, before he pushes for more. (Or heck, I might start something at that point...who knows?)

If I actually know you, it's different. But trying to pick up some woman you JUST met or barely know...I don't think so.

 

[Elmo Dukat]

Hambeast? Fat chicks?

I see the culturally-instilled disgust of fat women is as cleverly-delivered as ever!

I'm sure it's okay to name-call, humiliate, or stereotype whole groups of people, and then just say, "Diff'rent strokes" and I'm absolved of my bigotry, right?

We're all attracted to different people. But to pretend that a group of people is some how generally more inherently disgusting and unattractive than another is the definition of bigotry, and it's the height of ignorance. The plain fact is, the thin "ideal" has only been an "ideal" for the past 100 years or so. That's a pretty small fraction of human history.

And maybe Rycher was able to impress her more easily because she was a "fat chick," but did you ever think why that might be the case? Oh, maybe because "fat chicks" are degraded, hated, and discriminated against every day of their damn lives and a hint of simple chivalry is, to them, in stark contrast to the kind of treatment they receive regularly from people like some of the posters in this thread?

Maybe you should keep your hate to yourself and, like Rycher, try to be, oh, nice to other people. I think he sets a fine example. You don't need to hit on or compliment other people if you're not attracted to them, but it would be a great improvement to the world if your disgust and bigotry weren't worn so plainly on your sleeve.

That's fine.

I'm not a bigot.

Aaaand let's leave it at that, guys. Thank you.

And I'm having a hard time reconciling these posts. One just doesn't belong.

Changing your focus from a single poster to society writ large doesn't change much. Elmo, I understand this is a hot button issue for you, but continuing to rant about society's bigotry towards fat people after you'd been asked not to is unacceptable.

If you want to start a thread about fat acceptance or cultural norms and ideals, fell free.

If posters are allowed to come in and name-call and humiliate whole groups of people, representatives from those groups should be allowed to defend themselves and those they represent. You either allow nothing, or you allow a balanced viewpoint. I think the decision about these kinds of discussions in Misc has been made before, and it was on the side of balance, as long as it remains on-topic and non-trolling (as my post was).

I don't see any reason why I should be silenced, and the ones from whom the hate first spouted shouldn't also be reprimanded. If you don't want threads to get argumentative, fine. But don't single *me* out. I'm not the one who started making off-topic disgusted comments about a group of people of whom I'm a part. *I* didn't start the vitriol in this thread, I merely stood up for myself and those I represent in the absence of any hope of moderation.

I've notified on these kinds of statements before, but it's never gone anywhere. There are others who are in the same boat, those who notify on statements that are intended to offend groups of people of whom they're a part, but *nothing happens*. The offensive statements - often vitriolic, hateful bigoted smears, which are meant to excoriate you and make you and your brethren feel like the scum of the Earth - are allowed to stand. Any defense runs the risk of being deemed 'off-topic' or 'argumentative' by moderators, even though the original offensive statements were as much or more off-topic than the defense.

And starting threads about these issues is the most effective way of throwing oneself to the wolves. It's entirely unfair that you require this of those who defend members of groups they represent, yet the denigration of these groups is let slide in thread after thread.

In short, if you allow the offensive statements, in the name of balance you must allow a defense. Otherwise you need to friendly everyone, both the offenders and defenders. Singling me out doesn't make sense, and simply isn't consistent with Misc moderation precedence.

If you want to give me a warning about this, fine. But I will take it to MA, and I will bring others like myself out of the woodwork who can speak to their own experiences being ignored or singled out by moderators while offenders were allowed to make pot-shots in thread after thread. This has been coming for a long time, and I think there are other posters who know *exactly* what I mean.

I know that the moderation attitude in Misc is extremely preemptive, these days. If you see something that looks like it might blow up, squelch it, and don't care about what the sides are saying, who started what, etc. I know there are a lot of posts to read, a lot of context to wade through, and moderators are real people with real lives. But, for whatever reason, this preemptive dogma has resulted in a lot of good, fun, silly posters being driven out of here because the minute they stood up for themselves, they were batted down without speaking to their concerns whatever. And we all know PMs and notifies only go so far.

But, perhaps due to this change of moderation strategy, or perhaps something else, Misc has really changed a lot over the past few years. It used to be a place in which I, and many other diverse individuals, for the most part felt confident posting. There wasn't just a sense of damage-control or preemption from the moderation staff, there was a sense of justice, of protecting good, regular posters from posters whose sole purpose was to spread hate and cause problems. This has changed, and not for the better.

Thanks for all who read this. I'm out of this thread. Continue on with your ignorant, hateful, disgusted statements about women whose bodies look like mine. That's why we exist, you know. So that you have someone to feel better than, using false arguments fed to you by researchers funded by the weight-loss industry to make you feel nice and righteous in your hate. Don't you think the argument of 'inherent inferior health' has been used to oppress other groups in the past? Or is your historical memory so poor?

All this has happened before, and it will happen again. Thanks, BSG! The rest of you could stand to learn a thing or two from the science fiction you say you're so interested in. This is no Golden Age of tolerance and truth in which we live. It's just a matter of being able to understand what is propaganda, and what is not. Sadly, many people don't have the time or resources to do that kind of research. But it doesn't make your ignorance or bigotry acceptable. And it doesn't make it acceptable to single out and silence the voices that are trying to tell you what is truth and what are lies, and let the lies stand. Silence us all, or silence no one. There's no other fair option.

 

[jkladis]

The plain fact is, the thin "ideal" has only been an "ideal" for the past 100 years or so. That's a pretty small fraction of human history.

That's because, prior to the past 100 years or so, being overweight meant that your family could afford food (thus, rich). It wasn't that plump women were seen as particularly attractive above and beyond their slender contemporaries - their bank accounts (so to speak) were.

Knowing what we now know about the negative health effects of being overweight, it has become seen as a less desirable condition. Especially when (for example, although there are others) a person who has shown no obese tendencies balloons up over a relatively short period, some can only think that this person has decided to quit taking care of themselves. Same with a hefty person who comes from a rather skinny family - some can only think they do not care about their appearance/upkeep.

Exactly what happens to me when I eat a lot of bacon-wrapped deep dish pizza with a side of butter.

 

[Kirby]

A Walgreen's beauty consultant? Is Walgreen's really a hot bed of beauty? Most of the people that I see walking around Walgreens look like meth addicts, that goes for both customers and the employees. If I was a woman looking for beauty advice I would probably take the time to drive to a Macy's or some other higher end store rather that hit Walgreens. Hell, Costco would be better than Walgreen's.

To the OP, if you feel good about your comment, and it was truly spontaneous, then it was smooth. However, never ever say that again. It sound pretty douchey if it's not spontaneous.

 

[An Officer]

I know that the moderation attitude in Misc is extremely preemptive, these days. If you see something that looks like it might blow up, squelch it, and don't care about what the sides are saying, who started what, etc.

This is true and very obvious. It's like we're all at kinder garden now.

What's next, we'll have to raise our hands to pee?

 

[Angry Angel]

This is true and very obvious. It's like we're all at kinder garden now.

What's next, we'll have to raise our hands to pee?

There better be someone from the staff on standby to wipe my ass when I have to go for the big one.

 

[iguana_tonante]

I'm not quite so bothered by a simple observation and I will just respond politely (I may have told you what I think of it internally, but I am not going to just insult somebody--I am not anywhere near as ill-mannered as you seem to think)--but if I think some guy is trying to put the moves on me when they don't even know me...I DO think that's disrespectful. Get to know me first. I've had stuff like this at work where I've actually been asked for my phone number and gotten dinner invites from customers I've literally helped just once and not shown any interest other than the friendliness that is a matter of proper customer service. I find that WAY over the top.

Sometimes if someone seems to be commenting too much on my appearance who doesn't know me, I feel like it's headed that way and it does make me uncomfortable. Like I said, I'm not going to insult them or say anything to hurt their feelings but I'm also not going to go along willingly with them into whatever it is they want. I want to see that a guy is capable of getting to know me as a person, and holding off until there's a relationship on that level, before he pushes for more. (Or heck, I might start something at that point...who knows?)

If I actually know you, it's different. But trying to pick up some woman you JUST met or barely know...I don't think so.

I understand your concern, and I say it with the utmost respect, but I don't think I can agree with you on this. Given that we are not talking about harassment (or pathetic behaviors like wolf whistles and the like), I don't see how making a compliment or even asking a girl out can be disrespectful.

Getting to know people on a personal level is wonderful, but sometimes there is no time for that. The first thing I notice in a girl is her appearance. Actually, that's also the first thing I notice in a man, even if I'm firmly on the hetero field of the game. I notice it because, first of all, it's right there: I cannot unsee what I have seen, and then because as a sexual being I'm hardwired to look for physical beauty in a potential mate.

So if I see a girl and think she's cute, what should I do? I don't know anything about her beside her appearance, so a compliment is a good ice-breaker as anything, and saying nice things is better than saying bad things.

And if the fist small talk is going well and she seems nice, asking out is just a way to get to know the person better, not a request for sex worded as "yes/no, please tick the appropriate box".

On the other hand, hitting girls at their work, where they are required to be friendly with customers and can't simply go away, is a shady area and definitively not cool.

 

[An Officer]

There better be someone from the staff on standby to wipe my ass when I have to go for the big one.

Consequences and *diarrh-cussions* to everything.
You gotta take the pood with the bad.

 

[Holdfast]

Hambeast? Fat chicks?

I see the culturally-instilled disgust of fat women is as cleverly-delivered as ever!

I'm sure it's okay to name-call, humiliate, or stereotype whole groups of people, and then just say, "Diff'rent strokes" and I'm absolved of my bigotry, right?

We're all attracted to different people. But to pretend that a group of people is some how generally more inherently disgusting and unattractive than another is the definition of bigotry, and it's the height of ignorance. The plain fact is, the thin "ideal" has only been an "ideal" for the past 100 years or so. That's a pretty small fraction of human history.

And maybe Rycher was able to impress her more easily because she was a "fat chick," but did you ever think why that might be the case? Oh, maybe because "fat chicks" are degraded, hated, and discriminated against every day of their damn lives and a hint of simple chivalry is, to them, in stark contrast to the kind of treatment they receive regularly from people like some of the posters in this thread?

Maybe you should keep your hate to yourself and, like Rycher, try to be, oh, nice to other people. I think he sets a fine example. You don't need to hit on or compliment other people if you're not attracted to them, but it would be a great improvement to the world if your disgust and bigotry weren't worn so plainly on your sleeve.

Aaaand let's leave it at that, guys. Thank you.

And I'm having a hard time reconciling these posts. One just doesn't belong.

Changing your focus from a single poster to society writ large doesn't change much. Elmo, I understand this is a hot button issue for you, but continuing to rant about society's bigotry towards fat people after you'd been asked not to is unacceptable.

If you want to start a thread about fat acceptance or cultural norms and ideals, fell free.

If posters are allowed to come in and name-call and humiliate whole groups of people, representatives from those groups should be allowed to defend themselves and those they represent. You either allow nothing, or you allow a balanced viewpoint. I think the decision about these kinds of discussions in Misc has been made before, and it was on the side of balance, as long as it remains on-topic and non-trolling (as my post was).

I don't see any reason why I should be silenced, and the ones from whom the hate first spouted shouldn't also be reprimanded. If you don't want threads to get argumentative, fine. But don't single *me* out. I'm not the one who started making off-topic disgusted comments about a group of people of whom I'm a part. *I* didn't start the vitriol in this thread, I merely stood up for myself and those I represent in the absence of any hope of moderation.

I've notified on these kinds of statements before, but it's never gone anywhere. There are others who are in the same boat, those who notify on statements that are intended to offend groups of people of whom they're a part, but *nothing happens*. The offensive statements - often vitriolic, hateful bigoted smears, which are meant to excoriate you and make you and your brethren feel like the scum of the Earth - are allowed to stand. Any defense runs the risk of being deemed 'off-topic' or 'argumentative' by moderators, even though the original offensive statements were as much or more off-topic than the defense.

And starting threads about these issues is the most effective way of throwing oneself to the wolves. It's entirely unfair that you require this of those who defend members of groups they represent, yet the denigration of these groups is let slide in thread after thread.

In short, if you allow the offensive statements, in the name of balance you must allow a defense. Otherwise you need to friendly everyone, both the offenders and defenders. Singling me out doesn't make sense, and simply isn't consistent with Misc moderation precedence.

If you want to give me a warning about this, fine. But I will take it to MA, and I will bring others like myself out of the woodwork who can speak to their own experiences being ignored or singled out by moderators while offenders were allowed to make pot-shots in thread after thread. This has been coming for a long time, and I think there are other posters who know *exactly* what I mean.

I know that the moderation attitude in Misc is extremely preemptive, these days. If you see something that looks like it might blow up, squelch it, and don't care about what the sides are saying, who started what, etc. I know there are a lot of posts to read, a lot of context to wade through, and moderators are real people with real lives. But, for whatever reason, this preemptive dogma has resulted in a lot of good, fun, silly posters being driven out of here because the minute they stood up for themselves, they were batted down without speaking to their concerns whatever. And we all know PMs and notifies only go so far.

But, perhaps due to this change of moderation strategy, or perhaps something else, Misc has really changed a lot over the past few years. It used to be a place in which I, and many other diverse individuals, for the most part felt confident posting. There wasn't just a sense of damage-control or preemption from the moderation staff, there was a sense of justice, of protecting good, regular posters from posters whose sole purpose was to spread hate and cause problems. This has changed, and not for the better.

Thanks for all who read this. I'm out of this thread. Continue on with your ignorant, hateful, disgusted statements about women whose bodies look like mine. That's why we exist, you know. So that you have someone to feel better than, using false arguments fed to you by researchers funded by the weight-loss industry to make you feel nice and righteous in your hate. Don't you think the argument of 'inherent inferior health' has been used to oppress other groups in the past? Or is your historical memory so poor?

All this has happened before, and it will happen again. Thanks, BSG! The rest of you could stand to learn a thing or two from the science fiction you say you're so interested in. This is no Golden Age of tolerance and truth in which we live. It's just a matter of being able to understand what is propaganda, and what is not. Sadly, many people don't have the time or resources to do that kind of research. But it doesn't make your ignorance or bigotry acceptable. And it doesn't make it acceptable to single out and silence the voices that are trying to tell you what is truth and what are lies, and let the lies stand. Silence us all, or silence no one. There's no other fair option.

Clearly you (and some others) have a significant level of disquiet about about Misc moderation. You're entirely welcome to have this opinion.

However you cannot just derail an entire thread, which was proceeding reasonably well. Given the previous friendlies by my co-mods, I feel I have no option but to warn for this persistent derailment.

I encourage you not to PM me about it, since given the above I feel there is little prospect of us coming to a mutually agreeable outcome.

Instead, I think you should go directly to MA and release you from the BBS policy need for us to have a PM discussion first.

That way you can express your feelings about the warning to the fullest extent you wish, and in public so others from all perspectives can chime in as they see fit. Others, please note that Elmo is, as usual, the one required to start the MA thread, so I advise you to wait until she does before commenting therein.

I will also certainly post a brief comment in the MA thread with my reasons for the warning, but will not enter into a long debate thereafter as I doubt it will be productive for either of us, and perhaps in any case, as you seem to suggest, a more definite ruling from those higher up in the staff hierarchy about what is and isn't permitted in Misc might help clarify matters for future threads.

I also do not feel this thread can continue without a very high likelihood of further derailment, so will bring it to a close here. I can't say I exactly look forward to the MA thread, but do hope it brings some clarity and resolution to the matter.