Was there a need for an alternate timeline?

[Set Harth]

nuSpock did try to assassinate nuKirk, though.

Uh... no?

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Humor, it is a difficult concept, and all.

 

[Greg Cox]

Felt more like watching a Mirror Universe story, myself.

Really? How?

Besides getting a more millitant feel from it, the characters felt like charactures of the originals, etc.

"I'm a soldier, not a diplomat."--James T. Kirk, "Errand of Mercy."

You know, it often seems to me that people are comparing the new movie to some idealized, "utopian" version of TOS that never actually existed.

Or maybe they're just applying TNG expectations to a movie based on TOS . . . . .

 

[BillJ]

Or maybe they're just applying TNG expectations to a movie based on TOS . . . . .

You hit the nail on the head.

 

[Set Harth]

All I know is Kirk once grabbed a phaser rifle and went to go kill his best friend.

And that was in TOS.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

The characters in the TOS-based movies from TWOK on were caricatures of the characters in TOS, so...

 

[Lapis Exilis]

nonsensical exposition

There was nothing nonsensical about it.

'K - you're right. Red matter totally made sense. And Nero blaming Spock personally for his family's death, that was solid characterization of a villain there - legendary storytelling for sure.

The scenes with Leonard Nimoy were unnecesary

For the story the creators of the film wanted to tell, they were necessary. They also help to counter the notion that the film has no connection to prior continuity, a notion often promoted by those seeking a flimsy excuse to discredit the film by any means.

No writer can tell a decent story if their main concern is keeping the most grumpy anal-retentive followers happy. They should have had the balls to take their lumps for rebooting, which is what they are doing whether or not they wasted a whole movie trying to keep the aforementioned group from complaining. Trek fans complain. It's our birthright. If they want to write Trek they'd better come to terms with that.

You want me to believe that Kirk and Spock have a deep and abiding friendship? Show me, don't tell me

Already done, in TOS and the earlier films. In STXI we're not at that point yet. That would be jumping ahead.

Exactly my point. Having Leonard Nimoy show up when Kirk is 25 and tell him what a legendary friendship he is destined to have with Spock is jumping ahead. It was awkward, clumsy, dumb and bad storytelling - precisely because it was jumping ahead. It robs the audience of the pleasure of seeing the uncertainty, the tentative steps into trust and loyalty that characterize a legendary friendship. It's a whole new universe -maybe they weren't going to end up in a legendary friendship. Maybe they could have ended up bitter enemies - but no, it's been ordained by Spock Prime. We already know the ending of the story. And that sucks all the dramatic tension from the central relationship.

utterly forgettable

Some might find it hard to forget the resurrection of a franchise that was for all intents and purposes dead in the water, especially when the film in question has the strongest opening sequence out of all the films in the franchise.

I will heartily agree about the opening sequence. It brought me to tears and I thought "Yes! Finally! Star Trek is back!" Within 45 minutes though I was shaking my head in disbelief with how they followed up that fantastic opening.

Hey, here's a cadet practically drummed out of the service, stowing away on the flagship - let's in the middle of an action sequence set up (where hopefully things are so loud no one will really notice the sleight of hand we're about to pull), have the captain promote him to First Officer over at least 50 more qualified officers, for no reason whatsoever except that he remembers that he was born during a space lightning storm. But hey, he's hot, he's a rebel and he's destined to be Captain Kirk! Not that anyone in this alternate timeline knows that, but apparently the time disruption sucked all story logic into the prime universe.

Had they not had to spend so much energy and screen time trying to cook up time travel conundrums to connect the reboot to the original continuity, they might have had time to actually develop Kirk's character.

The characters in the TOS-based movies from TWOK on were caricatures of the characters in TOS, so...

Actually, I've always felt that TWOK was the last time we see the characters being true to form. They get a little shaky in TSfS, still having some pretty solid moments in this movie, particularly the theft and destruction of the Enterprise. They run completely into caricature territory in TVH. Fun as it is, it was the beginning of the end.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

TWOK leans more toward pastiche than caricature, but it's close either way.

 

[BillJ]

Exactly my point. Having Leonard Nimoy show up when Kirk is 25 and tell him what a legendary friendship he is destined to have with Spock is jumping ahead. It was awkward, clumsy, dumb and bad storytelling - precisely because it was jumping ahead. It robs the audience of the pleasure of seeing the uncertainty, the tentative steps into trust and loyalty that characterize a legendary friendship. It's a whole new universe -maybe they weren't going to end up in a legendary friendship. Maybe they could have ended up bitter enemies - but no, it's been ordained by Spock Prime. We already know the ending of the story. And that sucks all the dramatic tension from the central relationship.

And defeats the purpose of the reboot.

The Kirk/Spock friendship is one of the central themes of Star Trek and the evolution of it was one of the things I was looking forward to exploring in the films. But it seems like all the character dynamics are set in stone and don't differ much from TOS.

I would've rather seen the films explore their differences then had an Enemy Mine style final film where they're stuck in a situation that requires them to trust/depend on each other to survive.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Trek fans complain. It's our birthright.

Speak for yourself. Maybe you hang with the wrong part of the crowd?

 

[Set Harth]

Having Leonard Nimoy show up when Kirk is 25 and tell him what a legendary friendship he is destined to have with Spock is jumping ahead.

Time travel by definition involves something out of its "ordained" place in time. Anti-time travel rule in the Big Imaginary Book of "Good" Storytelling? Who ordained that?

It robs the audience of the pleasure of seeing the uncertainty, the tentative steps into trust and loyalty that characterize a legendary friendship. It's a whole new universe -maybe they weren't going to end up in a legendary friendship. Maybe they could have ended up bitter enemies - but no, it's been ordained by Spock Prime. We already know the ending of the story. And that sucks all the dramatic tension from the central relationship.

Strangely, I don't feel robbed. Probably because I don't go to ST films expecting to see Kirk and Spock ending up as bitter enemies, Uhura getting a sex change or McCoy morphing into a grapefruit.

Red matter totally made sense. And Nero blaming Spock personally for his family's death, that was solid characterization of a villain there

I accept your concession.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Trek fans complain. It's our birthright.

Speak for yourself. Maybe you hang with the wrong part of the crowd?

That would be "the part largely represented on the Internet."

 

[Lord Garth]

I mean why not cover the original 5 year mission, but just expand on that 5 year mission. Tell stories of the things that we didn't see on the aforementioned original 5 year mission? Introduce new races and new stories. But then again I can understand the need of a new timeline to explain physical differences whether it be to the new crew like Kirk's eyes being blue now instead of the hazel green eyes that Shatner has, or the differing look of the Enterprise. What do you think...thanks for all the replies. I love it!! The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few...or the one...(thought of that one myself too! )

Since we already know what happened in TOS and the movies would have to maintain the same status quo as the series to be consistent, I'd say a reboot was necessary.

Without a reboot, we'd also already know how the characters turn out after the series ends. There'd be no room for the new films to do anything. You couldn't have any twists or, even worse, all the twists would have to be undone.

 

[Spock/Uhura Fan]

I think there was a need for an alternate timeline. I just hope they do something with it and don't try to recreate the 3 seasons of TOS and the TOS movies that followed. If it's new, then it should be new for a reason and not a rehash. I'm hopeful.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

TWOK leans more toward pastiche than caricature, but it's close either way.

I understand caricature, but not pastiche, especially in context; could you elaborate on what you mean here?

 

[Mars]

I like to think that if the next movie is about Khan, or one further down the road, it plays out how you suggest, where he was found earlier and that encounter was radically different so Khan doesnt try to take control and instead works a larger, grander scheme.

To parapharase the BSG analogy, just because it happened before doesnt mean it has to happen again.

One thing Elder Spock would do, would be to tell the Federation about Khan, and with his computer like mind, he could probably locate the SS Botany Bay for them as well, so Federation ships would arrive on the spot to pick it up or otherwise safely dispose of it without reviving any of the supermen and women in cryostasis.

 

[R. Star]

Felt more like watching a Mirror Universe story, myself.

Really? How?

Besides getting a more millitant feel from it, the characters felt like charactures of the originals, etc.

While I'll agree that they are do seem watered down versions of the original cast, there's nothing militant about a cadet skipping all the way to captain.

 

[BillJ]

One thing Elder Spock would do, would be to tell the Federation about Khan, and with his computer like mind, he could probably locate the SS Botany Bay for them as well, so Federation ships would arrive on the spot to pick it up or otherwise safely dispose of it without reviving any of the supermen and women in cryostasis.

So Starfleet should execute them?

 

[Mars]

One thing Elder Spock would do, would be to tell the Federation about Khan, and with his computer like mind, he could probably locate the SS Botany Bay for them as well, so Federation ships would arrive on the spot to pick it up or otherwise safely dispose of it without reviving any of the supermen and women in cryostasis.

So Starfleet should execute them?

I don't know, what do you think they should do? Spock comes up and says, "this here is the Botany Bay, this guy Khan Noonan Singh killed me in the original timeline." So what is the logical thing to do?

 

[BillJ]

One thing Elder Spock would do, would be to tell the Federation about Khan, and with his computer like mind, he could probably locate the SS Botany Bay for them as well, so Federation ships would arrive on the spot to pick it up or otherwise safely dispose of it without reviving any of the supermen and women in cryostasis.

So Starfleet should execute them?

I don't know, what do you think they should do? Spock comes up and says, "this here is the Botany Bay, this guy Khan Noonan Singh killed me in the original timeline." So what is the logical thing to do?

Exactly what Kirk did in Space Seed. Put them on an uninhabited planet, but this time put markers in orbit.