Was there a Klingon battlecruiser at Wolf 359?

Discussion in 'Star Trek: The Next Generation' started by Dukhat, Dec 5, 2018.

  1. Dukhat

    Dukhat Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Hansen's statement seems to confirm that the 40 starships were Starfleet, and any Klingon reinforcements would be extra.

    Admiral Satie mentions that 39 starships were destroyed. She was most likely referring to Starfleet ships. So that also implies that one ship escaped.
     
  2. The Wormhole

    The Wormhole Admiral Admiral

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    Which is often believed to be the USS Endeavor, based on the fact Janeway was reading a report from Endeavor's captain about the Borg, in addition to Picard's in Scorpion.
     
  3. JesterFace

    JesterFace Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Memory Alpha says:
    "39 Federation starships were annihilated and 11,000 personnel were lost at the Battle of Wolf 359."

    Satie said that 39 Federation ships were destroyed by the Borg. If there were more than 40 that Hanson said, those would have been Klingon ships.

    What happened to that one ship that wasn't destroyed? Maybe it wasn't blown into bits if the Borg boarded the ship and assimilated everybody? Who knows.
     
  4. Dukhat

    Dukhat Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    But it wasn’t stated that the Endeavour was at Wolf 359, just that it was in a battle with the Borg, which could have been a different conflict.

    It’s most likely the Ahwahnee, which was definitely at Wolf 359 and shows up again later as one of the ships in Picard’s tachyon grid.
     
  5. The Wormhole

    The Wormhole Admiral Admiral

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    Oh, I know. But the idea is one fanon has really latched onto, to the point that there was even a comic which went with it.
    Now that is an interesting idea.
     
  6. JesterFace

    JesterFace Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Something from Memory Alpha:

    Michael Okuda meant the USS Ahwahnee in "Redemption II" to be the same Ahwahnee as seen in "Best of Both Worlds, Part II.
     
  7. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    So she wouldn't have escaped - she would have been destroyed, and then put back into service because the Borg did a half-assed job at starship destruction at Wolf 359. Why, it almost looks as if they utilized their mighty cutting beam like a cheap Dremel tool...

    The thing about "escaping ship" is that there's little story demand for one, and it would be quite difficult to jam that in. Why would a ship escape and then fail to inform our heroes of everything that happened? And where would the ship escape to, if not Earth (which does not feature any starships we'd hear of)?

    Also statistically somewhat odd is why exactly one ship would escape, if escaping was going to happen in the first place. What would be the point? Hanson's message already indicates the fleet was having second thoughts, a brief opportunity to reconsider tactics and approach; apparently, the fleet chose to keep on fighting and dying, despite the demonstrated hopelessness of it all. Why didn't one captain sign the suicide pact?

    Satie and Hanson could be taken literally if 40 ships were destroyed but only 39 for good, so that one would later be patched up and the ghosts of crews past exorcised. But there's little need to take Hanson literally.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  8. rhubarbodendron

    rhubarbodendron Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    My appologies - I misunderstood your post and thought your photoshopped pic showed that shuttle. Whatever you photoshopped is definitely a Doppelgänger of the ship in the background of your first pic. If your photoshopped one is Klingon, then you prooved that at least one Klingon vessel participated in the battle and got damaged.
     
  9. Dukhat

    Dukhat Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Sure, it’s possible there were only 39 ships and Hansen was just rounding up. But we see the Ahwahnee relatively intact in BoBW, and then a few years later it’s part of the tachyon grid. So I prefer to take Hansen literally.
     
  10. JesterFace

    JesterFace Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    My guess is that 40 Federations ships took part at the fight at Wolf 359 and Ahwahnee wasn't destroyed but damaged enough during the battle for the Borg to ignore it.
     
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  11. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    If we argue we "see" the ship in "BoBWII" (despite her being but an indistinct blob in the background), then we admit she did not survive the battle: our E-D heroes verify there's nobody alive in any of the wrecks. Why would Satie treat her differently from the other 39 lifeless wrecks in her mudslinging, then? To make Picard look less bad?

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  12. Dukhat

    Dukhat Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    The structural integrity field could have collapsed, turning the crew to salsa while keeping the ship intact. The small blob we do see of the ship showed that it was seemingly intact after the battle, so it could have been collected afterwards and returned to service. How else to explain the ship appearing again later?
     
  13. Corpus Christi

    Corpus Christi Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Or, rather, inertial dampeners could have failed. I tend to think that anything that would paste the crew would also damage many other parts of the ship as well, but I suppose it wouldn't necessarily render the ship irreparable or unsalvageable.
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2018 at 11:15 AM
  14. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    By arguing that she never did go to Wolf 359?

    At best, we saw a Cheyenne class ship there. She was probably USS Jamake Highwater, NCC-50101, then. I mean, if we somehow could read the pennant art for real, we'd see she wasn't USS Ahwahnee, NCC-71620, but NCC-73620...

    Of course, if we do want to have two ships of the same name and design but with a different registry, we can plead E-A: Starfleet might have felt the need to pretend no ships were lost at Wolf 359, just like the USN wanted to pretend no ships were lost for good at Pearl Harbor, and, in addition to undertaking insanely extensive rebuilding, proceeded to build replicas or rename existing ships. Since the registry goes down rather than up, a renaming seems the preferable to newbuilding.

    Perhaps the same was done with all the ships lost? It's not as if we would have seen "successor" ships with the same name but different registry on screen so far. (Edit: Save for the Bellerophon. Perhaps she was the one ship out of the 40 too far gone to warrant resurrection? :devil:)

    Timo Saloniemi
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2018 at 9:49 AM
  15. Dukhat

    Dukhat Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    The ship is listed in official sources as being at Wolf 359. That’s good enough for me.
     
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  16. matthunter

    matthunter Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Actually, the hulk in question does bear a resemblance to a Saber-Class ship from the rear angle. Now, obstensibly the Sabers are newer designs made to fight the Borg AFTER Wolf 359, but what if there was an early prototype that just did particularly well at that battle and thus got mass-produced due to the "lasted longer than she should have" idea?
     
  17. Dukhat

    Dukhat Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Except that model isn’t a Saber class ship. So it’s kind of a moot point.
     
  18. Tenacity

    Tenacity Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Uncleanable?
     
  19. Corpus Christi

    Corpus Christi Fleet Admiral Admiral

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