Was the reborn Spock after ST III a clone or was it REALLY him?
- Thread starter The Rock
- Start date
Oh, boy.
Well, we're dealing with speculative fiction, so there are all kinds of empirical observations we're lacking. For example, there's no evidence that this kind of thing is at all possible, and the obstacles to its accomplishment probably have some bearing on the original question. But, what the hell...
I'm not convinced that Spock's mind can continue as Spock in McCoy's mind. Sure, we can write about the mind as if it's a discrete thing, separate from the body. But as far as we know, our minds are embodied; they exist as part of specific existence, in a specific time and place. Then you add another species' biochemistry, and the different experiences of McCoy. I'm not sure Spock-McCoy and Spock can be the same.
But let's assume Spock-McCoy is the old Spock, not long before death. McCoy keeps his (copied) mind alive for a little while, then he gets transferred into a cloned body, which more or less fits with his old body.
I suspect he'd be largely the same person, but somewhat changed for his experience. If anything, the knowledge that he's a clone, and the product of a disembodied mind copied into a cloned body, would change his outlook a little. As I suggested above, I also suspect he'd be changed by his newfound intimacy with McCoy.
In either case, is he exactly the same? No.
Well, we're dealing with speculative fiction, so there are all kinds of empirical observations we're lacking. For example, there's no evidence that this kind of thing is at all possible, and the obstacles to its accomplishment probably have some bearing on the original question. But, what the hell...
I'm not convinced that Spock's mind can continue as Spock in McCoy's mind. Sure, we can write about the mind as if it's a discrete thing, separate from the body. But as far as we know, our minds are embodied; they exist as part of specific existence, in a specific time and place. Then you add another species' biochemistry, and the different experiences of McCoy. I'm not sure Spock-McCoy and Spock can be the same.
But let's assume Spock-McCoy is the old Spock, not long before death. McCoy keeps his (copied) mind alive for a little while, then he gets transferred into a cloned body, which more or less fits with his old body.
I suspect he'd be largely the same person, but somewhat changed for his experience. If anything, the knowledge that he's a clone, and the product of a disembodied mind copied into a cloned body, would change his outlook a little. As I suggested above, I also suspect he'd be changed by his newfound intimacy with McCoy.
In either case, is he exactly the same? No.
Good point. If I saw those episodes for the first time now, I would similarly balk at the ideas, just like I wrote about STIII.
There is a difference, however, Return to Tomorrow implies (or states? can't remember) that there is some fancy technology for the transfer, whereas Spock and the Vulcan priestess just use mindmelds.
Wolf in the Fold is pure gothic horror, with no attempt at science to explain the transfers.
The thing about STIII that makes it worse, to me, is that it asks us to accept both the personality transfers and the bodily regeneration.
Doug
Well let's start off with the concept of the Vulcan "Katra". I look at the Katra being a unique part of Vulcan evolution, one that allows them to convert their memories, knowledge and conciousness into energy that can then be moved from the body at the moment of death to the intended recipient (whether that be a living host or a special Katra ark).
We could speculate upon Spock's hypothesis that Vulcans and Sargon's people were closely related and Sargon's people at their advanced level of evolution, were capable of transferring their conciousness and reasserting themselves fully in a different vessel. What's more, they were capable of perfoming this technique on other species (to a lesser degree, or to a similar degree in the case of Spock being able to take over Nurse Chapel).
Anyway, it's always been vague as to what cultural purpose the Katra serves in Vulcan society. I assume that many Vulcans learn the ability to transfer their Katra and it is then delivered to Vulcan, where a priest or priestess transfers it from the host to an Ark. The Ark can then be used by other Vulcans to gain knowledge and memories and consult with the deceased in a fashion, although the deceased aren't truly dead - merely dreaming in suspended limbo because they cannot reassert their consciousness. It also seems that some Vulcans choose to create a symbiotic relationship with the deceased by carrying around their Katra, although the living Vulcan is apparently the dominant personality.
Let's say that the reason Spock was able to return to conciousness was because his own body was once again alive and because it was his body, the brain was designed to house his Katra. The priestess was able to perform the refusion for that reason, although it was a very difficult procedure that didn't exactly turn Spock back to the way he was (he required several weeks to fully regain his knowledge and memories and seemed to lose part of his humanity in the process - although he regained it).
This brings up the question as to why Vulcans don't simply clone themselves or clone a duplicate brain. It's probably down to the fact that even a clone will have subtle differences to the original and the fact that a clone would have a unqiue conciousness and then you have the ban on cloning and genetic engineering that the Federation has going on, or maybe the Vulcans simply see it as being unethical.
Now onto Spock's new/old body, which is a bit more clear cut. Something similar to this subject was actually one of the first posts that I made on TBBS, because I wondered how exactly Spock went from adult to child in the first place. After debating it with other users, the most plausible explanation was that Spock's deceased body broke down into goo and rapidly reformed itself starting off as a fetus and then an infant and then to the child Spock that we see first in TSFS. Don't ask me how he was able to walk though, or even lift the lid of the photon tube, given that his mind was completely blank!
So my answer is that the reborn Spock that we see is the same Spock that has always been there. His deceased body simply broke down, regenerated and reformed and therefore it never stopped being the same body, albeit one that went through a few substance changes! I think that Katra thing was a mind and conciousness transfer, given the aforementioned reasons and the fact that Spock seems to have experienced the whole ordeal from McCoy's perspective ("I do it because I was there").
We could speculate upon Spock's hypothesis that Vulcans and Sargon's people were closely related and Sargon's people at their advanced level of evolution, were capable of transferring their conciousness and reasserting themselves fully in a different vessel. What's more, they were capable of perfoming this technique on other species (to a lesser degree, or to a similar degree in the case of Spock being able to take over Nurse Chapel).
Anyway, it's always been vague as to what cultural purpose the Katra serves in Vulcan society. I assume that many Vulcans learn the ability to transfer their Katra and it is then delivered to Vulcan, where a priest or priestess transfers it from the host to an Ark. The Ark can then be used by other Vulcans to gain knowledge and memories and consult with the deceased in a fashion, although the deceased aren't truly dead - merely dreaming in suspended limbo because they cannot reassert their consciousness. It also seems that some Vulcans choose to create a symbiotic relationship with the deceased by carrying around their Katra, although the living Vulcan is apparently the dominant personality.
Let's say that the reason Spock was able to return to conciousness was because his own body was once again alive and because it was his body, the brain was designed to house his Katra. The priestess was able to perform the refusion for that reason, although it was a very difficult procedure that didn't exactly turn Spock back to the way he was (he required several weeks to fully regain his knowledge and memories and seemed to lose part of his humanity in the process - although he regained it).
This brings up the question as to why Vulcans don't simply clone themselves or clone a duplicate brain. It's probably down to the fact that even a clone will have subtle differences to the original and the fact that a clone would have a unqiue conciousness and then you have the ban on cloning and genetic engineering that the Federation has going on, or maybe the Vulcans simply see it as being unethical.
Now onto Spock's new/old body, which is a bit more clear cut. Something similar to this subject was actually one of the first posts that I made on TBBS, because I wondered how exactly Spock went from adult to child in the first place. After debating it with other users, the most plausible explanation was that Spock's deceased body broke down into goo and rapidly reformed itself starting off as a fetus and then an infant and then to the child Spock that we see first in TSFS. Don't ask me how he was able to walk though, or even lift the lid of the photon tube, given that his mind was completely blank!
So my answer is that the reborn Spock that we see is the same Spock that has always been there. His deceased body simply broke down, regenerated and reformed and therefore it never stopped being the same body, albeit one that went through a few substance changes! I think that Katra thing was a mind and conciousness transfer, given the aforementioned reasons and the fact that Spock seems to have experienced the whole ordeal from McCoy's perspective ("I do it because I was there").
That's exactly what I was thinking of!The Zen answer would be that the question does not fit the case.
Birthers are not logical.
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