Was the Enterprise A actually the Yorktown?

[Robert Comsol]

The term "Constitution class" was on a diagram though; I believe it was in one of Scotty's technical manuals.

This is the point where the details matter and become crucial.

"Constitution Class" popped up in the script for "Space Seed" (and apparently along with the primary phaser schematic) belonging to one of the starship manuals Khan had been studying, when McGivers stepped in.

The schematic had a comeback in "The Trouble With Tribbles" on a monitor display in the recreation room but not as a part of a starship manual but as a part of a technical journal.

While this has been the essential and decisive source for the assumption that the Enterprise is a CCS (Constitution Class Starship), it is obviously entirely conjectural.

Bob

 

[C.E. Evans]

The term "Constitution class" was on a diagram though; I believe it was in one of Scotty's technical manuals.

This is the point where the details matter and become crucial.

"Constitution Class" popped up in the script for "Space Seed" (and apparently along with the primary phaser schematic) belonging to one of the starship manuals Khan had been studying, when McGivers stepped in.

The schematic had a comeback in "The Trouble With Tribbles" on a monitor display in the recreation room but not as a part of a starship manual but as a part of a technical journal.

While this has been the essential and decisive source for the assumption that the Enterprise is a CCS (Constitution Class Starship), it is obviously entirely conjectural.

Bob

Except when she was referred to as such twice during TNG:
"The Naked Now" and in "Relics."

Whether she was referred to as such during TOS is kinda of a moot point, IMO.

 

[yenny]

The term "Constitution class" was on a diagram though; I believe it was in one of Scotty's technical manuals.

This is the point where the details matter and become crucial.

"Constitution Class" popped up in the script for "Space Seed" (and apparently along with the primary phaser schematic) belonging to one of the starship manuals Khan had been studying, when McGivers stepped in.

The schematic had a comeback in "The Trouble With Tribbles" on a monitor display in the recreation room but not as a part of a starship manual but as a part of a technical journal.

While this has been the essential and decisive source for the assumption that the Enterprise is a CCS (Constitution Class Starship), it is obviously entirely conjectural.

Bob

Except when she was referred to as such twice during TNG:
"The Naked Now" and in "Relics."

Whether she was referred to as such during TOS is kinda of a moot point, IMO.

The only time that star fleet starship class was mention. Was in the Doomsday Machine script. It mention that the Constellation was similar to the Enterprise and was was the namesake of the class and she was a Constellation class starship. You should know that the real USS. Constellation nickname is Connie.
http://www.chakoteya.net/StarTrek/35.htm
http://www.ussconstellation.org/

 

[Workbee]

This appears to be a transcript rather than a script. Do you know the source of this information? Particularly any of the non-dialogue annotations?

 

[Robert Comsol]

Except when she was referred to as such [Constitution Class] twice during TNG:
"The Naked Now" and in "Relics."

Incorrect. The reference in "The Naked Now" is only to the "Starship Enterprise" of James T. Kirk.

Whether she was referred to as such during TOS is kinda of a moot point, IMO.

Since I do not consider contradicting retcon BS as relevant, it's "Relics" that requires imaginative rationalizations, not what the creators intended and had established up to ST VI and "Relics".

@ yenny

YES, I do know very well that "Connie" is a nickname for the real USS Constellation (and the plane Gene Roddenberry had piloted!), that's what I'm permanently trying to tell my fellow BBS mates, but they just won't listen.

Bob

 

[Manticore]

Not having seen Relics in over 20 years (I should correct that at some point), what rationalizations are required there?

 

[Avro Arrow]

I do recall mention in the novelization of the Enterprise being the only ship of the original twelve to survive its 5-year mission intact, and that is why it became the basis for the movie era refit.

Well, that would have been contradicted by Picard's statement about having a Connie in the Starfleet Museum.

Well, unless the Connie in the Museum wasn't one of the "original twelve". (Assuming that's an exact quote?) But honestly, I never put much stock in the "Enterprise is the only one who survived" theory. It's bad enough we saw so many of the class destroyed on-screen, since the show only used the one Starfleet design. If their failure rate was really 92%, I doubt the characters would speak of them in such glowing terms...

 

[C.E. Evans]

Except when she was referred to as such [Constitution Class] twice during TNG:
"The Naked Now" and in "Relics."

Incorrect. The reference in "The Naked Now" is only to the "Starship Enterprise" of James T. Kirk.

Which is the Starship Enterprise of TOS, so it's correct.

Whether she was referred to as such during TOS is kinda of a moot point, IMO.

Since I do not consider contradicting retcon BS as relevant, it's "Relics" that requires imaginative rationalizations, not what the creators intended and had established up to ST VI and "Relics".

Doesn't matter since it's only retconning things that never made it to screen. It's the end onscreen result that counts. Always has been.

You can try to deny onscreen material if you want, but for everyone else, the USS Enterprise, NCC-1701, was a Constitution-class starship from the day she was launched to the day she fell over the Genesis planet.

 

[Mario de Monti]

You can try to deny onscreen material if you want, but for everyone else, the USS Enterprise, NCC-1701, was a Constitution-class starship from the day she was launched to the day she fell over the Genesis planet.

Please don´t speak for everyone else I for one don´t think, the TOS-Enterprise has to be a Constitution class vessel. Since you (quite correctly) point out the importance of "onscreen material" you should conclude that the Enterprise was a Starship class vessel "from the day she was launched to the day she fell over the Genesis planet", because that is onscreen canon (dedication plaque of the Enterprise during TOS).
When Scotty looks at that schematic in TUC, we´re on a new ship, NCC-1701-A, that apparently is a Constitution class ship.

Mario

 

[Robert Comsol]

Except when she was referred to as such [Constitution Class] twice during TNG:
"The Naked Now" and in "Relics."

Incorrect. The reference in "The Naked Now" is only to the "Starship Enterprise" of James T. Kirk.

Which is the Starship Enterprise of TOS, so it's correct.

It's been a while since I saw such an example of circular logic.

The dialogue in "The Naked Now" doesn't refer to the TOS Enterprise as a member of the Constitution Class nor does the TNG monitor display (before Kirk era "expert" Mike Okuda got another chance to mess with continuity).

And how much continuity thought went into "Relics" was already revealed before Scotty entered the holodeck.

"Show me the bridge of the Enterprise" "There have been five Federation ships with that name. Please specify!" "NCC-1701"

So why didn't we see this bridge?!?

@ Mario de Monti

The logic of your argument is inescapable. And I've seen a lot of BBS members in various threads that do not belong to the "everyones" and insist on "Starship Class". As a Bob Justman groupie I think he did mean "Enterprise Starship Class" but "Starship Class" it is - beyond doubt.

Bob

 

[Mario de Monti]

"Show me the bridge of the Enterprise" "There have been five Federation ships with that name. Please specify!" "NCC-1701"

So why didn't we see this bridge?!?

Or this one?

And why did the computer assume, Scotty wanted to see the bridge of a Federation Starship in the first place? There were other Enterprises, that were no Starships but had command bridges as well

 

[blssdwlf]

IIRC, the onscreen evidence for the class of the TOS/Movie Enterprises are:

"Starship Class" plaque that was on the TOS Enterprise bridge for Seasons 1-3.
"Enterprise Class" training simulator bridge in TWOK for the TWOK Enterprise.
"Heavy Cruiser" type of TOS Enterprise line drawing seen on bridge in TSFS.
"Constitution Class" schematic Scotty was looking at in TUC for the TUC Enterprise-A.

"Constitution Class Enterprise, Captain James T Kirk commanding" from "The Naked Now" showed the movie version Enterprise line drawing. I understand that in the new FX version of TNG they replaced it with a TOS Enterprise drawing.
"Constitution Class" from "Relics" used to describe the bridge simulation. Dedication plaque unreadable.
Edit: "This was the first Enterprise. Constitution class." from "Trials and Tribbleations".

So at the time of TOS, she was a "Starship Class".

Then when rebuilt in TMP, she's her own "Enterprise Class".

And when replaced with a new/different ship, that ship came from the "Constitution Class". Her final disposition would be then "Constitution Class".

The characters in the future could then only refer to the last version which is the "Constitution Class" Enterprise-A under Captain James T. Kirk. To keep it simple they don't dive in and comment that for a while Kirk was an Admiral and the Enterprise was her own "Enterprise Class" and "Starship Class". It is possible that "Starship Class" and "Enterprise Class were sub-classes of the "Constitution Class". IMHO.

 

[Mario de Monti]

I find it more likely, that "Enterprise class" and "Constitution class" are both sub-classes of the "Starship class". Enterprise and Constitution both are specific vessels that are the first of a type/class and thus give their names to that class. "Starship" OTOH is probably just a designation for vessels/classes that have certain characteristics (e.g. capable of high speeds and long journeys, thus able to travel between the stars), so "Starship" should be at the top level regarding vessel classifications. I assume we can agree there´s no USS Starship

Mario

 

[B.J.]

@ yenny

YES, I do know very well that "Connie" is a nickname for the real USS Constellation (and the plane Gene Roddenberry had piloted!), that's what I'm permanently trying to tell my fellow BBS mates, but they just won't listen.

I know that all too well too (being an aerospace engineer and a bit of a space/aviation nut), but I also know that language evolves, and certain words can mean one thing to one group of people but something else to another. If I'm at the EAA fly-in at Oshkosh and someone mentions a "Connie", I know they're talking about the Lockheed Constellation. If I hear a Navy commander talk about *THE* Connie, he's referring to the USS Constellation. However, for the vast majority of Trekkies, "Connie" refers to the Constitution class, and I have no problem making the distinction or understanding that whatsoever.

And no, we are listening, we just disagree.

 

[Robert Comsol]

If I'm at the EAA fly-in at Oshkosh and someone mentions a "Connie", I know they're talking about the Lockheed Constellation. If I hear a Navy commander talk about *THE* Connie, he's referring to the USS Constellation. However, for the vast majority of Trekkies, "Connie" ...

...would logically have to refer to the USS Constellation (NCC-1017)

Yes, there was this school of thought in the early 1970's and IIRC in some of the Blish adaptations. Looks like we could have a BBS poll with multiple choice selections.

In general I find it outrageuosly weird or nerdy that there is talk about the Enterprise but a nickname is used that has absolutely nothing to do with it. At least "Enty", "Aunty" or "Ente" (German word for duck) would sound somewhat appropriate, IMHO. Or a cool sounding acronym like CCS (Constitution Class Starship), not too dissimilar from CVN (Cruiser Voler Nuclear).

And just imagine the reaction of aviatic buffs like Roddenberry and Jefferies if any fan would have ever told them "Guys, I really love your Connie design":

There is a country where they actually say "handy" for cell phone and "beamer" for a video front projector. If your reaction is the same as the one you'd get from Roddenberry and Jefferies for "Connie", I hope I've illustrated the issue.

Bob

 

[yenny]

This appears to be a transcript rather than a script. Do you know the source of this information? Particularly any of the non-dialogue annotations?

http://www.chakoteya.net/ That is the site that I've got it from. But they only have transcripts.

 

[yenny]

Starship class doesn't means first ship of it class. Class itself means type in this case.

Gene himself did the same thing with the Yorktown. He call the Yorktown a cruiser class.

http://leethomson.myzen.co.uk/Star_Trek/1_Original_Series/Star_Trek_Pitch.pdf

If you go look at any ships plaque? They most of the time don't mention the ship class, only it type. But sometimes they don't even do that.

 

[Praetor]

I hope you don't mind, blssdwlf, if I modify your synopsis slightly.

IIRC, the onscreen evidence for the class of the TOS/Movie Enterprises are:

TOS/Movie References:
"Starship Class" plaque that was on the TOS Enterprise bridge for Seasons 1-3.
"Enterprise Class" training simulator bridge in TWOK for the TWOK Enterprise.
"Heavy Cruiser" type of TOS Enterprise line drawing seen on bridge in TSFS.
"Constitution Class" schematic Scotty was looking at in TUC for the TUC Enterprise-A.

TNG references:
"Constitution Class Enterprise, Captain James T Kirk commanding" from "The Naked Now" showed the movie version Enterprise line drawing. I understand that in the new FX version of TNG they replaced it with a TOS Enterprise drawing.
"Constitution Class" from "Relics" used to describe the bridge simulation. Dedication plaque unreadable.

DS9 references:
"This was the first Enterprise. Constitution class." from "Trials and Tribbleations".

So at the time of TOS, she was a "Starship Class".

Then when rebuilt in TMP, she's her own "Enterprise Class".

And when replaced with a new/different ship, that ship came from the "Constitution Class". Her final disposition would be then "Constitution Class".

The characters in the future could then only refer to the last version which is the "Constitution Class" Enterprise-A under Captain James T. Kirk. To keep it simple they don't dive in and comment that for a while Kirk was an Admiral and the Enterprise was her own "Enterprise Class" and "Starship Class". It is possible that "Starship Class" and "Enterprise Class were sub-classes of the "Constitution Class". IMHO.

I think this is a pretty accurate breakdown of the facts as aired.

(I can't recall if Icheb mentioned the ship by class in "Q2" on Voyager, but I doubt it.)

To re-state, based on aired evidence:

• If we consider only TOS, the original is Starship Class.*
• If we consider TOS and the movies, she's Enterprise class, at least after she's refit... the A is then a Constitution (refit).
• If we consider TNG and DS9, she was Constitution class in her original form, too. "Starship class" means something else, or is an error and should be ignored.

*I still think Bob's rationalization that "Starship Class" means "class of this starship's name" makes a degree of sense. Then, the only alteration would be that the Enterprise was the only member of her class all along, with other ships being Constitution class, including the Enterprise-A. It also fits nicely with the real-world CVN-65 Enterprise being a unique member of her own class which also happens to look (to a layman) a lot like another couple classes of aircraft carrier.

Then again, Scotty might've taken umbrage at Picard's "Constitution Class" remark if the original Enterprise was distinguished as a member of her own class... or he might have just been amused at the Captain's misunderstanding. Of course, he was drunk.

 

[B.J.]

@ yenny

YES, I do know very well that "Connie" is a nickname for the real USS Constellation (and the plane Gene Roddenberry had piloted!), that's what I'm permanently trying to tell my fellow BBS mates, but they just won't listen.

I know that all too well too (being an aerospace engineer and a bit of a space/aviation nut), but I also know that language evolves, and certain words can mean one thing to one group of people but something else to another. If I'm at the EAA fly-in at Oshkosh and someone mentions a "Connie", I know they're talking about the Lockheed Constellation. If I hear a Navy commander talk about *THE* Connie, he's referring to the USS Constellation. However, for the vast majority of Trekkies, "Connie" refers to the Constitution class, and I have no problem making the distinction or understanding that whatsoever.

And no, we are listening, we just disagree.

If I'm at the EAA fly-in at Oshkosh and someone mentions a "Connie", I know they're talking about the Lockheed Constellation. If I hear a Navy commander talk about *THE* Connie, he's referring to the USS Constellation. However, for the vast majority of Trekkies, "Connie" ...

...would logically have to refer to the USS Constellation (NCC-1017)

No. I've given my reasons, and logic has nothing to do with it. Rarely is there any logic in how language evolves, or how nicknames are used. And don't ever cut off my words like that again.

Yes, there was this school of thought in the early 1970's and IIRC in some of the Blish adaptations. Looks like we could have a BBS poll with multiple choice selections.

In general I find it outrageuosly weird or nerdy that there is talk about the Enterprise but a nickname is used that has absolutely nothing to do with it. At least "Enty", "Aunty" or "Ente" (German word for duck) would sound somewhat appropriate, IMHO. Or a cool sounding acronym like CCS (Constitution Class Starship), not too dissimilar from CVN (Cruiser Voler Nuclear).

And just imagine the reaction of aviatic buffs like Roddenberry and Jefferies if any fan would have ever told them "Guys, I really love your Connie design":

There is a country where they actually say "handy" for cell phone and "beamer" for a video front projector. If your reaction is the same as the one you'd get from Roddenberry and Jefferies for "Connie", I hope I've illustrated the issue.

Bob

Just remember, you're talking with other "aviatic buffs" here as well, like me. And I still disagree.

 

[C.E. Evans]

You can try to deny onscreen material if you want, but for everyone else, the USS Enterprise, NCC-1701, was a Constitution-class starship from the day she was launched to the day she fell over the Genesis planet.

Please don´t speak for everyone else

I'm not, I'm just stating a fact.


It's been called a Constitution-class starship onscreen more than once. Seems like everyone else accepted it.

It's been a while since I saw such an example of circular logic.

There's nothing circular about it.

The only way to claim that the Enterprise isn't a Constitution-class starship is to ignore onscreen material that says she is and replace it with personal conjecture based on ignoring canon.