Was the development of a successful Warp 5 engine accelerated or delayed because of the Vulcans?

[at Quark's]

ARCHER: I've been listening to you Vulcans tell us what not to do all my entire life. I watched my father work his ass off while your scientists held back just enough information to keep him from succeeding. He deserved to see that launch. You may have life spans of two hundred years, we don't.

According to a highly frustrated and suspicious Archer in Broken Bow.

We all know that while Vulcans cooperated in the warp 5 engine development program, they did not volunteer any of their advanced knowledge. That may have been due to their version of a prime directive, or their belief that humanity is not yet ready for such a technology. While they were assisting with testing, it seems they were mainly urging caution and restraint on follow up.

What I'm curious about is what you think the 'net effect' of Vulcans involved in the Warp 5 engine was. Even if they weren't that enthusiastic, did their help accelerate the development of the Warp 5 engine in the end? Was their net help neutral? Or did they -as Archer seems to have been believing for several decades- actively stall the program? (I mean the fact that Archer sees it that way doesn't necessarily mean it's true - the prudence of Vulcans might have saved humanity a few early engineering disasters and the setbacks as a result of that, speeding up the end result in the long run). Or do you think the Vulcans even actively stealthily sabotaged some of the efforts to make sure warp 5 technology wouldn't be developed 'before humanity was ready'?

 

[FederationHistorian]

I think Vulcan policy regarding human warp drive was influenced by two key elements:

• The post atomic horror, which highlighted the worst of human barbarism, and may have signaled to the Vulcans that humans aren’t ready for space travel, or a concern that they would spread such barbarism to other worlds.

• The Romulan Star Empire, since they were able to influence Administrator V’Las. For how long the Romulans had been able to influence the Vulcan High Command though is an unknown. Between the 2060s and the establishment of the Warp 5 complex in 2119, humans are colonizing space, and the Vulcans don’t have a problem with it. That is not something that strikes me as a Romulan trait, particularly in this era.

In terms of warp drive, it’s a long time between 2120 and 2140s. To go from not being bothered by human colonization to suddenly stifling warp drive after humans managed to solve their problems on their own suggests that this would have been the time period when the Romulans started to influence Vulcan policy regarding human exploration and warp drive.

Soval did acknowledge that Vulcans were unsure as to what to make of humans due to their rapid progress. But humans managing to solve their problems on their own should have signaled to the Vulcans that humans were more ready to explore than given credit for. And that they would have found a way around any potential restrictions on further development of warp drive. Vulcans stalling progress - without Romulan influence - was more political and an act of caution than active sabotage. Humans managed to solve the problems regarding breaking the warp 2 barrier on their own.

Archer never puts two and two together in regards to Romulans influencing Vulcans, since he was never told the truth about the history of the Vulcans and the Romulans (tbf, T'Pol or most of Vuclan society at that time might not have been told the whole truth either). So, to him, Vulcans are just being dicks about human warp drive development, not realizing that some powerful individuals have been corrupted by external actors.

 

[Timo]

Romulans might well have a vested interest in helping Earth develop into an independent or at least active space power that would weaken Vulcan by its existence and antics.

I trust the Vulcan way of engineering in general would have had the practical effect of slowing down the Warp 5 Project, not out of malice or indeed any sort of intent, but simply because the rational approach of extreme caution would be so much slower than the Earth approach of extreme, ah, experimentation. In the medium run, though, keeping the Vulcan pace might have made Earth stronger more quickly.

Archer slipped into deep space in a ship that barely met the threshold criteria of deep space survival (phasers, transporters, only later on shields and photon torpedoes), and the loss of NX-01 to her own inferiority might have stalled Earth's deep space program for decades and slowed it down for centuries. Had Archer launched, oh, five years later, he might still have had the opportunity to raise hell, secure personal alliances with Andorians, and establish Earth as an ascending space power, but he'd have done that with a better ship that might have impressed more people and defused a few conflicts.

Then again, Archer's timing is the only thing that saved Earth from the Xindi...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[ChristopherPike]

There should've been a Season 5 episode where Henry Archer's degenerative disease was revealed to be part of a Vulcan/Romulan conspiracy. And then a touch of retro-active continuity covering how, after a century of no contact, Romulan Bird of Preys have apparently independently developed Starfleet style warp nacelles.

Hell, there just so many loose ends and neat ideas to explore in this time period, there should've been a Fifth Season full stop.

 

[Finn]

Delayed. Vulcans talked as if they went out too early.

 

[FederationHistorian]

There should've been a Season 5 episode where Henry Archer's degenerative disease was revealed to be part of a Vulcan/Romulan conspiracy. And then a touch of retro-active continuity covering how, after a century of no contact, Romulan Bird of Preys have apparently independently developed Starfleet style warp nacelles. Hell, there just so many loose ends and neat ideas to explore in this time period, there should've been a Fifth Season full stop.

There was a line cut before the airing of “Balance of Terror” stating that the Romulans stole a Starfleet design through espionage and traitors. But I don’t think we need to reach that far.


The Emmette-type ship from the ENT intro looks remarkably similar to the BoP of the 23rd century, don’t they?

Emmette-type

Romulan Bird of Prey (23rd century)

Maybe the Romulans captured one of those Emmette-types and brought it back to Romulus?

 

[somebuddyX]

I'd say neutral. My idea is that the Vulcans came down, helped get rid of all the radiation all over the planet and were mostly pretty hands off otherwise. I sort of wish there was a way to introduce some kind of proto-replicator that the Vulcans gave us to produce food for the starving masses, as it's something I really liked that humans came up with in the First Contact draft script, but it's hard to reconcile that with the introduction of the transporter on Enterprise and other references in Dead Stop. I figured we built the Warp 5 engine with them just standing around looking over our shoulder so we didn't blow up the planet. I think this slow release of warp drive and other technologies was a good story element although as a kid I always wanted Earth in the 22nd century to be kind of like the Earth Alliance in Babylon, as the new kid on the block who stumbled into a war it was unprepared for with a formidable enemy (Minbari/Romulans), although I really like the idea now that we teamed up with the Tellarites, Vulcans and Andorians to take them down, whether that is canon or not.

 

[Anthony Williams]

I agree with the above posts that the Vulcans were neutral and allowed Earth to develop at their own pace. Developing space travel takes time. It has been 50 years since the Apollo moon landings. We won't be sending men/women back to the moon until 2024 at the earliest. So 80 years or so it took to develop the Warp 5 engine seems reasonable in comparison.

 

[Deks]

I'd say neutral. My idea is that the Vulcans came down, helped get rid of all the radiation all over the planet and were mostly pretty hands off otherwise. I sort of wish there was a way to introduce some kind of proto-replicator that the Vulcans gave us to produce food for the starving masses, as it's something I really liked that humans came up with in the First Contact draft script, but it's hard to reconcile that with the introduction of the transporter on Enterprise and other references in Dead Stop. I figured we built the Warp 5 engine with them just standing around looking over our shoulder so we didn't blow up the planet. I think this slow release of warp drive and other technologies was a good story element although as a kid I always wanted Earth in the 22nd century to be kind of like the Earth Alliance in Babylon, as the new kid on the block who stumbled into a war it was unprepared for with a formidable enemy (Minbari/Romulans), although I really like the idea now that we teamed up with the Tellarites, Vulcans and Andorians to take them down, whether that is canon or not.

Actually, nothing was suggested towards the premise that Vulcans cleaned up the radiation all over Earth after WWIII, nor was there an indication that they gave Humanity a proto-replicator.
In fact, do we have proof that Earth was saturated in nuclear radiation after WWIII? Maybe parts of it, but not the whole planet.

In fact, throughout the previous Trek's... and even ENT, it was established that Humanity cleaned up its own mess and got their act together, not to mention gotten rid of poverty, disease and war in 50 years since First Contact with the Vulcans - implying that Humanity had the necessary technology, resources and science to provide for itself without outside aid.

However, Vulcan First Contact may have given Humanity incentive to impress not just the Vulcans but also the larger interstellar community... but with WWIII finally at an end, that alone may have given Humanity the incentive they needed to change their ways... First Contact may have simply accelerated that transformation - or it would have happened either way in the same amount of time.

Although, it was established in Enterprise that Earth, Andor, Tellar and Vulcan did create a coalition at first (which kicked off the Earth/Romulan war) and then in 2161, this coalition created the UFP to give way for more species to join.

 

[Nyotarules]

Based on the test drive episode, I vote for delayed. Depending on when V'Las took over the Vulcan government, I blame Romulan influence on the Vulcan policy of holding humanity back. However the speed of humanity's reforms might have disturbed the Vulcans. However I believe those 100 years of human isolation was a good thing, it meant the generation that lived during and after WW3 had passed on and a new generation of humans that were used to aliens were in charge of the planet. The late 21st century humans with a warp drive might have more been 'Terran' than 'Human' with their warlike ways. It would take major political will, as well as technology, to change human culture from what it is today to what was shown in the Trek universe where AFAIK humanity stopped worshiping at the altar of rampant capitalism and individualism.

 

[Mrs. Silvercrest]

I think they delayed it. Given the way their planets government was at the time, with the Romulan "in the back ground" they would not have wanted Earth "OUT THERE" in the universe. Earth was an unknown to them. How would they be? What would they do? And so on...

 

[The Wormhole]

The conversation between T'Pol and Soval in Twilight would seem to confirm the Vulcans did indeed delay the development of the warp 5 engine.

SOVAL: If you return to Vulcan. You owe the humans nothing. They chose to leave Earth before they were ready. If they'd accepted our counsel, this tragedy would have been avoided.
T'POL: We could have saved them.
SOVAL: How?
T'POL: We held back their warp programme for one hundred years. A policy which you supported. If we would have helped them develop faster ships, better defences.

 

[Deks]

However I believe those 100 years of human isolation was a good thing, it meant the generation that lived during and after WW3 had passed on and a new generation of humans that were used to aliens were in charge of the planet. The late 21st century humans with a warp drive might have more been 'Terran' than 'Human' with their warlike ways. It would take major political will, as well as technology, to change human culture from what it is today to what was shown in the Trek universe where AFAIK humanity stopped worshiping at the altar of rampant capitalism and individualism.

I don't share this perception.
There is nothing indicating you need to wait for an old generation to 'die off' for the new generation to successfully live in the future with changes that happened.
If anything, real life demonstrated time and again that all humans DO in fact change throughout the course of their lives (we ARE after all adaptive species).
Sure, some may be more stubborn than others, but if you change the environment, you will inevitably change human behavior (even that of older humans)... we just don't see this effect because we're all still collectively STUCK inside Capitalism with majority not really wanting to get rid of it (because they are delusional in their thinking its actually still 'working' - all evidence to the contrary).

Heck, the end of WW3 ended up resulting in Humanity changing their ways towards something akin to Resource Based Economy in the 50 years since First Contact... and for all we know, Earth may have already initiated some changes with the end of the global war... and obviously, not all older humans died off in the War, nor were they all stuck up, unyielding or conservative (in fact, I've met plenty of elderly open-minded and progressive humans who just never got a chance to influence society for the better unlike some people who are currently in power).

 

[Tenacity]

There is nothing indicating you need to wait for an old generation to 'die off' for the new generation to successfully live in the future with changes that happened

Some people are very adaptable, and would have been in a mental position to interact with aliens almost immediately. Nations on Earth that could work with Vulcans would prosper over nations that couldn't.

something akin to Resource Based Economy

Did you have a quote or scene that would indicate this?

 

[Anthony Williams]

The conversation between T'Pol and Soval in Twilight would seem to confirm the Vulcans did indeed delay the development of the warp 5 engine.

Well spotted! Although T'Pol's words can have several interpretations.

T'POL: We held back their warp programme for one hundred years. A policy which you supported. If we would have helped them develop faster ships, better defences.

My interpretation is the Vulcan's didn't hold back the Warp 5 engine by sabotaging research or misleading humans, instead they didn't share technology or knowhow which could have accelerated the Warp 5 project.

So humans didn't artificially develop Warp 5 capability at a fast rate than they should have they instead developed it at their own pace. It depends on your viewpoint whether you interpret this as the Vulcan's 'holding back' but personally I don't.

 

[Timo]

How much did a century of "holding back" actually slow down the program? Would it have been completed (that is, yielded a warp 5 engine good enough for exploration) in less than this century? Or would it have been completed in 120 years but now took 140 from discovery of warp theory to fielding of warp 5 engine?

Naturally, the opposite of holding back would have been providing a warp 5 engine to the humans in a nice package, a process taking perhaps two minutes, depending on file transfer rate or the length of appropriate ceremonies for handing over the keys. That Earth needed a "warp programme" to begin with would seem to establish that it wasn't about handovers - in which case "holding back" would basically have to refer to actual nastiness inflicted on the humans so that their native efforts would be slowed down.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Deks]

Well spotted! Although T'Pol's words can have several interpretations.

T'POL: We held back their warp programme for one hundred years. A policy which you supported. If we would have helped them develop faster ships, better defences.

My interpretation is the Vulcan's didn't hold back the Warp 5 engine by sabotaging research or misleading humans, instead they didn't share technology or knowhow which could have accelerated the Warp 5 project.

So humans didn't artificially develop Warp 5 capability at a fast rate than they should have they instead developed it at their own pace. It depends on your viewpoint whether you interpret this as the Vulcan's 'holding back' but personally I don't.

To be fair, when T'Pol said that, she wasn't exactly her fully logical self and was more emotional than ever.

On the other hand, it seems to me that if this statement from T'Pol if accurate (and seems like it is), and also factoring in what Archer mentioned that Vulcans refused to share their findings, it was a COMBINATION of factors.

Namely, Vulcan's weren't too thrilled about Humanity joining the interstellar stage as they didn't deem them 'ready' for it, despite seeing Humanity solving their own problems in only 50 years since First Contact... in fact, this right there may have worried them all the more, because they weren't accustomed to seeing this speed in social change (wait until they learn we can undo damage to Earth in reality from climate change and restore full biodiversity, clean up the planet and create a create a FAR higher living standard for each and every human alive with 10-100x lower footprint on Earth in less than 10 years with EXISTING technology in early 21st century already - I think some might even have a small Vulcan stroke).

So, the way I see it, Vulcans had influence over Earth space program and Starfleet. They would make recommendations and the higher ups on Earth would listen because Vulcans are experienced interstellar species.
Holding back the space program would have meant something akin to hanging onto every possible error that Vulancs uncover in humans experimenting with new technology and having us running 'endless tests' over and over (much like it was suggested when we saw flashbacks from breaking Warp 2 barrier).

Add in Archer's comment about Vulcans not sharing their own research with Earth indicated that Vulcan sensors and scientists may have picked up something Earth sensors and scientists did not, and it would have helped Humans minimize other mistakes.

Vulcans didn't like us taking risks with technological advancement (part of which attributed to its acceleration) and thought we were doing things too fast.

Now IF Vulcan's hadn't interfered as much as they have in Earth policy but also didn't share their findings, its possible that Earth would have taken more risks with Warp drive and may have ended up developing Warp 5 earlier than they have... or it would have happened at the same rate.

No 'endless tests' from Vulcans would mean Earth would have tried to break the Warp 2 barrier earlier, which meant what we saw happen with the Warp 2 testing would have happened to other candidates... and Warp 5 ships would have taken off maybe a decade or two earlier.

 

[Dryson]

I think the Vulcans accerelated the advancement of the Warp 5 engine, but after realizing that humans were rather haphazard in their thoughts about space exploration, the Vulcans tried to slow humanity down.

 

[MacLeod]

Romulans might well have a vested interest in helping Earth develop into an independent or at least active space power that would weaken Vulcan by its existence and antics.

Timo Saloniemi

Sounds like a great plan in theory, but like the probe ship they used to in an attempt destabalise the region it ended up having the exact opposite effect.

But perhaps one way to look at it when you measure your life span in centuries rather than decades you might be more willing to take more time on projects. Remember it took the Vulcans circa 1500 years to recover from their atomic wars humanity seems like it was on course to do it in a few centuries.

 

[Deks]

Sounds like a great plan in theory, but like the probe ship they used to in an attempt destabalise the region it ended up having the exact opposite effect.

But perhaps one way to look at it when you measure your life span in centuries rather than decades you might be more willing to take more time on projects. Remember it took the Vulcans circa 1500 years to recover from their atomic wars humanity seems like it was on course to do it in a few centuries.

Humanity recovered and utterly changed in mere 50 years since the end of WW3, although, it could have taken far less than that even... a decade tops, but fine, 50 years it is.

I don't understand why it would have taken the Vulcans 1500 years to change. They are exceptionally intelligent, and for a species that supposedly values logic and has very advanced technology, it shouldn't have taken them that long.
Actually, shortly after Surak imparted his teachings, it probably would have happened very quickly... but not being too exploration minded species like Humans may have left them 'content' on Vulcan for a long period of time and not necessarily expanding their sphere of influence much farther past their own solar system... partly because there weren't that many warp capable species at the time (as T'Pol mentioned), so there might have been less incentive for them to go out and meet other species without knowing definitively they would meet any.