Was the D an experimental ship?

[kent]

Okay Commander Troi is a different kind of animal from your average Counaselor. She is empathic, which means she's FAR more useful in combat or odd situations than usual. She can sense an enemies treachary, or be there to guide the captain in making a decision that's difficult. Troi didnt just play ships therapist, she was also the eyes and ears of the entire crew, which is extremely useful to a captain in a lot of situations. If it was an average therapist without this ability, you probably wouldn't see him/her on the bridge much unless he'she had some extra abilities, like command training. TNG was the only series with a regular counselor on the bridge. Ezri sometimes, but that was mostly just on the Defiant, and she seemed to just be there to help out. Didn't she have some medical training as well? I can't remember her character that well.

As for families on board ships, that started could have resonably started to happen in the 2340's and 2350's. The USS Saratoga had families on board, and that ship is OLD. the Ambassador class was pretty enormous, so it seems reasonable to conclude it had civilians and families as well. The Nebula class most definately has families, as does the Galaxy class (while not in war time that is.), and the Intrepid class has been shown that the crew quarters can be re-worked for families and civilians. It might be small in terms of decks, but in terms of internal volume it's bigger than a Constitution and simliar in size to an Excelsior. As for the Sovereign class, I dont think initially it will have families, as it's design is leaned more towards a battleship/heavy cruiser motif, and it's still close to the Dominion war. But I think eventually it will happen, it's certainly big enough. 24 decks, 3 m/deck with a w/ 1 or 2 meters in between for subsystems and jerffries tubes (first contact), it has a height of roughly 100 meters and a length of about 710 meters. More than adequate enough for families.

Families and civilians became more prevelant as ships were able to extend their missions from 3-5 years, to something like 10-15 years at a time without seeing families. Be gone for that long and you miss your kids entire life.

 

[warriorsfan]

You'd think that Starfleet would realize that having children on board starships was a bad idea after the, oh I don't know, first 40 or so disasters involving starships. Hell, you'd think Picard would have realized that after the children were KIDNAPPED by aliens.

For a ship that was repeatedly put in potential combat situations (BOBW, Redemption, Chain of Command, Generations, etc), doesn't having children on board make no sense whatsoever? What do they do, make a detour to the nearest starbase to dump off the kiddies whenever it looks like things are getting dangerous? At least they got rid of the kids for the Ent-E.

 

[Commander Rabbit]

On a ship of 1000 people, shouldn't she have some, I don't know, appointments? Research? Etc. etc.

I can't cite specific episodes, but I do recall several references to her having appointments w/ crew members. And Reg Barclay seems to have been a long-term client for therapy.

 

[Timo]

You'd think that Starfleet would realize that having children on board starships was a bad idea after the, oh I don't know, first 40 or so disasters involving starships.

Only if you think children are more valuable as adults, or their survival more important than that of grown-ups. Which may not be true of the brave new world of the 24th century any more.

For a ship that was repeatedly put in potential combat situations (BOBW, Redemption, Chain of Command, Generations, etc), doesn't having children on board make no sense whatsoever?

It made sense for soldiers up until very recently: what was the point of having a family if one would never see it? Back then, the inability to see the family while on leave was due to the inability to traverse the vast overland or overseas distances from one's assignment to one's home. Today, that's no longer an issue - but it will be an issue again if our troops get aboard starships that stay away for years at an end.

At least they got rid of the kids for the Ent-E.

Don't be so sure. They could well still be there even if we don't see them. After all, we only witnessed the E-E in action in three movies; there were far more than three TNG episodes that did not feature kids even though they were aboard. And we never quite witnessed a situation aboard the E-E that would have called for the presence of the kids. Even in the ST:FC evac scene, we only saw the inside view of the evacuation of one of the topmost decks, where only military personnel would be working.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[kent]

I agree with Timo. Families should be allowed on Starships if they are going to be away 5 plus years, or in the case of the Galaxy class, 10 plus. You'd miss your kids entire childhood, the chance to bond with your wife or husbands(s), to bond with your child, to help raise them...

In TOS the ships were relatively slow, and didn't travel huge distances so it wasn't a problem so to speak, but by the 2330-40's, Starships had already been able to travel vaster distances, especially the Ambassador class. In fact, I bet that the Ambassador class pioneered the idea for families to be on starships, that class was huge (36 decks).

Also, I'm pretty sure that in battle civilians are evac'ed to designated "safe zones" closer to the heart of the ship while still being convenient to lifeboats.

 

[JoeZhang]

How does she evaluate crew performances then?

Wasn't that Riker's job?

 

[Plecostomus]

How does she evaluate crew performances then?

Wasn't that Riker's job?

In real life, a supervisor fills out assessment forms which get forwarded to the HR department.

I assume the HR role would overlap with Medical, Command and whatever Troi answered to, they'd get the evaluation forms, read through the report, put out fires and such.

 

[Ryan Thomas Riddle]

As much as I enjoyed watching Star Trek: The Next Generation, it like Star Trek: Voyager and Star Trek: Enterprise, failed to realize anything close to the series' full potential. The idea of over 1,000 people from all walks of life, exploring space while living and learning from one another, is a fascinating one. TNG ultimately became TOS with a different cast. In that sense it lived up to its title, if not its premise.

Fo'sho.

I'd also wished that we'd seen more of shipboard life beyond the usual places, much like the Probert designs done the abandoned Star Trek online game (not the one that's coming out). I've always felt that the Farpoint mall set pieces could've easily been redressed to be an open "air" area of the ship, presenting us with a different look than TOS or the movies.

 

[Jamie C]

OTOH, we have seen such a zoo of bridge crews already that it appears Starfleet Captains have broad powers to shuffle Deck 1 as they please. Having the Couselor on the bridge but not the Science Officer might have been a quirk of Picard's, rather than a bold Starfleet experiment.

It always made sense to me that the captain could organize the bridge and the command crew however they wanted. Like Jellico did when he took over as captain of the Enterprise. Another captain might have a dedicated second officer sitting in Troi's seat.

 

[C.E. Evans]

OTOH, we have seen such a zoo of bridge crews already that it appears Starfleet Captains have broad powers to shuffle Deck 1 as they please. Having the Couselor on the bridge but not the Science Officer might have been a quirk of Picard's, rather than a bold Starfleet experiment.

It always made sense to me that the captain could organize the bridge and the command crew however they wanted. Like Jellico did when he took over as captain of the Enterprise. Another captain might have a dedicated second officer sitting in Troi's seat.

That's the position I've always taken in regards to the Enterprise-D--Picard set up that ship the way he wanted it to be, but another captain might have done it differently. I don't think that portside command chair was specifically made for counselors, but Picard wanted a counselor on his bridge...

 

[darkwing_duck1]

By experimental, I don't mean technology, I mean the organisation of the crew?


Children and familes on board, a ship's councillor who sat on the bridge next to the Captain?

Obviously out of universe, we get those things because the initial premise of the show was different to what we got but in-universe it seems the set-up of the D was fairly atypical.


We know that Sisko's ship had children on it but any other examples? A failed experiment?

Long story short, according to the Tech Manual and statements from various production sources over the years:

Advances in propulsion technology and an extended period of relative peace and calm (no MAJOR wars/confrontations) led to an enormous expansion of the Federaion throughout the Alpha and Beta quadrants. At the same time, advances in automation and computer control made it possible for a ship to have fewer and fewer crew while still being capable of performing any required duties.

Over time, this led to increased deployment times for Starfleet personnel, who were expected to leave their families behind. The five year mission became six years, seven years, etc. This hardship understandably led to fewer officers willing to sign up for deep space duty.

Starfleet looked at the situation and came up with the policy of allowing at least SOME officers to bring families with them on deployment. The ships could accomodate the extra passengers due to decreased crew requirements, and the pressure on officers to retire or take ground posts was eliminated.

The culmination of this philosophy was the Galaxy class. She was the first class of starship designed from the beginning to include a large civilian population and it's infrastructure, as opposed to being included as an afterthought.

The backstage information I've seen and been able to put together suggests that the producers saw Galaxy-class ships as something akin to the old US Army forts of the 19th century, only mobile. The original story bible referred to a standard mission duration of 20 years, and said that the Enterprise and her kind were "deep space explorers", meaning they would be spending most of that mission duration deep in space and/or on the "frontiers" of the Federation. Thus the need for school rooms, civilian housing, extensive recreational facilities. The original concept, which Andrew Probert even did a few sketches of, and Ed Whitefire included on his deckplans, called for a "mall" where ship's residents as well as visiting colonists, etc could go to shop and relax. (This idea would be resurrected as DS9s "Promenade".)

Other examples of ships that definitely were shown to have had civilians on board included the Yamato (TNG)Odyssey (DS9), the Yosymete (sp?) (TNG), and possibly the Cairo (TNG).

 

[darkwing_duck1]

n/m...that's what I get for being late to the thread.

 

[darkwing_duck1]

Otherwise, explain to me why no other Starfleet vessel we've seen has no bridge officer counselor, or why Troi was nearly written out of the show? Troi herself may or may not be essential, but not the role of counselor, when it comes to daily bridge operations. (for that matter, when Troi is off-duty, who relieves her? Crusher has nurses and other doctors; Data, LaForge, and Worf have any number of ensigns under them; Picard has his senior staff. Who takes over for Troi at the end of the day? If the job is so essential as a bridge position, why no relief officer?)

I'd just point out that just because we never SAW them didn't mean they weren't there. Ezri was an ASSISTANT counsellor on the Destiny before she was bonded with Dax, so we know that ship had counsellors (note plural).

 

[darkwing_duck1]

Okay Commander Troi is a different kind of animal from your average Counaselor. She is empathic, which means she's FAR more useful in combat or odd situations than usual. She can sense an enemies treachary, or be there to guide the captain in making a decision that's difficult. Troi didnt just play ships therapist, she was also the eyes and ears of the entire crew, which is extremely useful to a captain in a lot of situations. If it was an average therapist without this ability, you probably wouldn't see him/her on the bridge much unless he'she had some extra abilities, like command training. TNG was the only series with a regular counselor on the bridge. Ezri sometimes, but that was mostly just on the Defiant, and she seemed to just be there to help out. Didn't she have some medical training as well? I can't remember her character that well.

As for families on board ships, that started could have resonably started to happen in the 2340's and 2350's. The USS Saratoga had families on board, and that ship is OLD. the Ambassador class was pretty enormous, so it seems reasonable to conclude it had civilians and families as well. The Nebula class most definately has families, as does the Galaxy class (while not in war time that is.), and the Intrepid class has been shown that the crew quarters can be re-worked for families and civilians. It might be small in terms of decks, but in terms of internal volume it's bigger than a Constitution and simliar in size to an Excelsior. As for the Sovereign class, I dont think initially it will have families, as it's design is leaned more towards a battleship/heavy cruiser motif, and it's still close to the Dominion war. But I think eventually it will happen, it's certainly big enough. 24 decks, 3 m/deck with a w/ 1 or 2 meters in between for subsystems and jerffries tubes (first contact), it has a height of roughly 100 meters and a length of about 710 meters. More than adequate enough for families.

Families and civilians became more prevelant as ships were able to extend their missions from 3-5 years, to something like 10-15 years at a time without seeing families. Be gone for that long and you miss your kids entire life.

Sternbach has said that the Soverign-class has no provisions for families on board, the "experiment" being generally abandoned due to the Borg incursions, Klingon war, and Dominion war. The remaining Galaxy-class ships might, however.

 

[Mirror_Barclay]

Sternbach has said that the Soverign-class has no provisions for families on board, the "experiment" being generally abandoned due to the Borg incursions, Klingon war, and Dominion war. The remaining Galaxy-class ships might, however.

If you want to carry on the Galaxy experiment, why not use the remaining vessels or even build more? The design isn't that old by Starfleet standards at the end of the last TNG film.

The new classes weren't built to incorporate new technology (at least, not primarily) but to emphasize a different mix of roles, in response to the realization that it's still a dangerous universe out there.

There's no reason for Starfleet to discontinue it's tiny science ships or even it's great big 'explorers' as part of focusing on new classes.

 

[darkwing_duck1]

Sternbach has said that the Soverign-class has no provisions for families on board, the "experiment" being generally abandoned due to the Borg incursions, Klingon war, and Dominion war. The remaining Galaxy-class ships might, however.

If you want to carry on the Galaxy experiment, why not use the remaining vessels or even build more? The design isn't that old by Starfleet standards at the end of the last TNG film.

The new classes weren't built to incorporate new technology (at least, not primarily) but to emphasize a different mix of roles, in response to the realization that it's still a dangerous universe out there.

There's no reason for Starfleet to discontinue it's tiny science ships or even it's great big 'explorers' as part of focusing on new classes.

In less than 10 years, the Romulans returned, the Borg invaded (several times) and the Federation found itself literally fighting for it's life in a manner not seen in 2 centuries.

Abandoning the "families onboard" policy meant they no longer NEEDED to design and build ships with elaborate civilian oriented facilities. That made the new ships more compact, more strongly built, and with more power available for weapons, shields, and propulsion.

 

[JoeZhang]

Did I dream this or did one of the technical manuals for DS9 state that most of the Galaxy class ships we saw during the war were mainly empty space, rapidly constructed with the core modules but nothing else?

 

[judge alba]

I agree with Timo. Families should be allowed on Starships if they are going to be away 5 plus years, or in the case of the Galaxy class, 10 plus. You'd miss your kids entire childhood, the chance to bond with your wife or husbands(s), to bond with your child, to help raise them...

In TOS the ships were relatively slow, and didn't travel huge distances so it wasn't a problem so to speak, but by the 2330-40's, Starships had already been able to travel vaster distances, especially the Ambassador class. In fact, I bet that the Ambassador class pioneered the idea for families to be on starships, that class was huge (36 decks).

Also, I'm pretty sure that in battle civilians are evac'ed to designated "safe zones" closer to the heart of the ship while still being convenient to lifeboats.

i'm pretty sure that if the galaxy class starships were to go into battle they would seperate the saucer section from the stardrive before hand. well supposed to, i remeber only one time they did that and that was during the first episode of season one. though i think they did it once more in descent though i'm probaly wrong about that.

 

[darkwing_duck1]

Did I dream this or did one of the technical manuals for DS9 state that most of the Galaxy class ships we saw during the war were mainly empty space, rapidly constructed with the core modules but nothing else?

You didn't dream it. I don't have it in front of me, but my recollection is that an initial order was placed for 12 complete spaceframes, but only 6 were fully contstructed before the project was put on hold. The other six were completed as far as spaceframe, outer hull, and core systems (power generation, etc), but without the crew facilities, science labs, etc.

They were then put into mothballs until the outbreak of the Dominion War, when they were reactivated and had minimal crew support systems installed and rushed into service.

Depending on whether or not you beleive that the Galaxy-class ships shown on screen each week were the same ships or different ones, Starfleet may or may not have commisioned more ships of the class.

 

[darkwing_duck1]

i'm pretty sure that if the galaxy class starships were to go into battle they would seperate the saucer section from the stardrive before hand. well supposed to, i remeber only one time they did that and that was during the first episode of season one. though i think they did it once more in descent though i'm probaly wrong about that.

Off the top of my head, they did it at least 4 times on screen: "Encounter at Farpoint", "Arsenal of Freedom", "Best of Both Worlds 2", and "Generations".