Was the D an experimental ship?

[JoeZhang]

By experimental, I don't mean technology, I mean the organisation of the crew?


Children and familes on board, a ship's councillor who sat on the bridge next to the Captain?

Obviously out of universe, we get those things because the initial premise of the show was different to what we got but in-universe it seems the set-up of the D was fairly atypical.


We know that Sisko's ship had children on it but any other examples? A failed experiment?

 

[The Borg Queen]

Maybe they only had those children on the ship because their parents didn't want/have anyone to leave them behind with.

As the Enterprise was supposed to be a diplomatic/exploration vessel, it would make sense to have a counselor as part of the bridge crew. Deanna probably has several degrees in Xenopsychology or whatever.

 

[Nardpuncher]

Yeah, it was one of those things where it tried to reach really far...but after week after week of stories, you can't really make it seem cutting edge. You just sort of have to tell stories.

The same thing happens when you try to say that some new ship will finally, really go out there where no one has gone before and do some honest exploring and seek out new life and new civizations...it can get old (1. Meet new race 2.Have some sort of misunderstanding 3. Resolve it and sail away) and you need more permanent sort of interactions with established characters and alien races.

 

[JoeZhang]

Yeah, it was one of those things where it tried to reach really far...but after week after week of stories, you can't really make it seem cutting edge. You just sort of have to tell stories.

The same thing happens when you try to say that some new ship will finally, really go out there where no one has gone before and do some honest exploring and seek out new life and new civizations..

Well that's what the enterprise was suppose to be doing - going on a long-term space exploration mission, that's why the dynamic was set up in that way and then... it never happened...

 

[WendellM]

By experimental, I don't mean technology, I mean the organisation of the crew?

Children and familes on board, a ship's councillor who sat on the bridge next to the Captain?

That's an interesting interpretation, and it makes sense. Back in '87, I had no idea what to expect, except that there was new Trek on the way. Then a friend in California sent me a copy of the Writer/Director's Guide. While not everything in it was followed, it did show that the show's creators had some major changes in mind from TOS, what with families and all (on-board families did seem to get played down in the actual series, except in evacuations):

The idea of a ship's counselor being as important as medical officers (or more) was there from the start, though maybe that didn't quite follow through fully:

 

[Timo]

OTOH, we have seen such a zoo of bridge crews already that it appears Starfleet Captains have broad powers to shuffle Deck 1 as they please. Having the Couselor on the bridge but not the Science Officer might have been a quirk of Picard's, rather than a bold Starfleet experiment.

And later in the show, it was established that other ships of other sizes and types and ages could also have families aboard, whereas it was never quite suggested that the E-D had been trailblazing this particular experiment. We could say Pike's ship already had a contingent of civilians aboard, as we remember an early and prominent corridor shot there featuring two young people dressed in civvies and apparently not even recognizing the Captain, let alone acknowledging him...

That aside, I'm sure Starfleet is always performing some sort of an experiment or another on the hapless crews of its starships.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Cyke101]

In Nemesis, I always thought it was odd/humorous that, after the Enterprise was hammered and the Scimitar ripped her a new one, when there was a lull in the attack, one of Picard's commands over echo-intercom was "Counselor Troi to the bridge."

Sure, later on she plays an important part in the battle, but I'm most certain that Picard didn't call her up to be Worf's targeting device.

I will always posit that having the ship's therapist sitting next to the captain in almost all emergencies is one of those things that dates TNG into the 80s.

 

[EmperorTiberius]

I don't see anything wrong with it. A psychologist could be invaluable dealing with aliens and all kinds of other problems, especially if the field has advanced in the 24th century compared to today, which the sheets above suggest.

And there is no need for a science officer when Data seemed to fill the role just fine.

 

[Cyke101]

I don't see anything wrong with it. A psychologist could be invaluable dealing with aliens and all kinds of other problems, especially if the field has advanced in the 24th century compared to today, which the sheets above suggest.

And there is no need for a science officer when Data seemed to fill the role just fine.

And what would Troi say after Shinzon's 17th salvo? "Sir, I sense hostility."

Besides, the show made it clear that above all else, Picard himself was a skilled diplomat. If he can't get you to put your guns down, nothing will.

 

[sbk1234]

And later in the show, it was established that other ships of other sizes and types and ages could also have families aboard, whereas it was never quite suggested that the E-D had been trailblazing this particular experiment. We could say Pike's ship already had a contingent of civilians aboard, as we remember an early and prominent corridor shot there featuring two young people dressed in civvies and apparently not even recognizing the Captain, let alone acknowledging him...

Timo Saloniemi

In Too Short a Season, Mrs. Old Decrepid Admiral made a comment about how the quarters on Enterprise were better than the quarters on the Gettysberg. That would seem to imply that years ago there was already some family on starships. I don't think they ever said if she had at one time been Starfleet.

 

[J47]

I don't see anything wrong with it. A psychologist could be invaluable dealing with aliens and all kinds of other problems, especially if the field has advanced in the 24th century compared to today, which the sheets above suggest.

And there is no need for a science officer when Data seemed to fill the role just fine.

And what would Troi say after Shinzon's 17th salvo? "Sir, I sense hostility."

Besides, the show made it clear that above all else, Picard himself was a skilled diplomat. If he can't get you to put your guns down, nothing will.

Troi was a skilled diplomat herself (especially by the time of Nemesis). I always saw her function as an assistant for Picard's diplomacy. Not to mention, as skillful as Picard was, it certainly couldn't've hurt to have a (part-)human lie detector at his side.

 

[FalTorPan]

As much as I enjoyed watching Star Trek: The Next Generation, it like Star Trek: Voyager and Star Trek: Enterprise, failed to realize anything close to the series' full potential. The idea of over 1,000 people from all walks of life, exploring space while living and learning from one another, is a fascinating one. TNG ultimately became TOS with a different cast. In that sense it lived up to its title, if not its premise.

 

[EmperorTiberius]

I don't see anything wrong with it. A psychologist could be invaluable dealing with aliens and all kinds of other problems, especially if the field has advanced in the 24th century compared to today, which the sheets above suggest.

And there is no need for a science officer when Data seemed to fill the role just fine.

And what would Troi say after Shinzon's 17th salvo? "Sir, I sense hostility."

Besides, the show made it clear that above all else, Picard himself was a skilled diplomat. If he can't get you to put your guns down, nothing will.

he needs advisers, and Troi was perfectly fine, especially when dealing with new races. It's not a military ship

 

[Praetor]

I think the D may have been a technological experiment in the sense that it was the third or fourth ship of its class launched, and this class was in and of itself something of a revolution in Starfleet's way of operations and design.

I also think that the idea of dedicated, long-range 'explorer' type starships was also something of a Starfleet experiment, although clearly the D was not the only or best example of this considering how often they tended to stay within the Federation sphere. (I am of the opinion that the Ambassador was an early halfway attempt at creating such a type of vessel, or at least pioneering the technological advances that would be necessary for a ship of this size, range, and type.)

The other aspects cited as experimental - families aboard, a counselor on the bridge and so on are more reflections of the changes that had occurred in Starfleet subsequent to the TOS/TOS film period. As has been noted, these notions were in the real world a part of the premise of the series and the idea that the D would be 'out there' a lot more than it would be home.

Clearly, though, these are not the only ships that have families aboard. Sisko had his civilian wife and son aboard the Saratoga, and the Saratoga didnt feature saucer separation abilities for getting families away in a crisis, so either Starfleet was irresponsible for allowing civilians to be put in harm's way or these people knew what they were getting into. Surely the 'saucer seperation' of the D wasn't so much a 'save the civilians' feature as a mission advantage for a ship that was originally intended to be isolated in unknown space for long periods. I can't help but think that the 'civilian areas' seen on the ship were really just expansion of the basic crew rest and recreation facilities that have been present on the ship from the beginning. The idea of some facilities being off-limits to the civilians aboard, of course, would be new.

Ultimately I wonder if this fed the image of the ship as a 'hotel in space'?

On a slightly related note, Doug Drexler recently noted in his blog that he designed the Enterprise-J for 'Enterprise' he conceived it as being a massive generational ship that would remain away from the Federation center for years and years, building upon this original, somewhat aborted idea behind the D's mission.

As much as I enjoyed watching Star Trek: The Next Generation, it like Star Trek: Voyager and Star Trek: Enterprise, failed to realize anything close to the series' full potential. The idea of over 1,000 people from all walks of life, exploring space while living and learning from one another, is a fascinating one. TNG ultimately became TOS with a different cast. In that sense it lived up to its title, if not its premise.

Preach it! All power to the engines.

 

[Cyke101]

I don't see anything wrong with it. A psychologist could be invaluable dealing with aliens and all kinds of other problems, especially if the field has advanced in the 24th century compared to today, which the sheets above suggest.

And there is no need for a science officer when Data seemed to fill the role just fine.

And what would Troi say after Shinzon's 17th salvo? "Sir, I sense hostility."

Besides, the show made it clear that above all else, Picard himself was a skilled diplomat. If he can't get you to put your guns down, nothing will.

he needs advisers, and Troi was perfectly fine, especially when dealing with new races. It's not a military ship

Never said it was a military ship (now you're putting words in my mouth). Sure Picard needs advisors, but does he need a counselor during a time warp or a battle? The writers nearly eliminated Troi early on in TNG, and it eventually got to the point where the crew would get into tailor-made situations specifically where she herself would be specifically needed (frankly, not necessarily a counselor, either). Is it sufficient to warrant the ship's therapist as a bridge officer? After all, Dr. Crusher isn't one -- she has her own office, her own department, commands a higher rank, and is often herself crucial to first contact missions. In Crusher's case, she only goes up to the bridge if she wants to or if the situation calls for it. Does the therapist need to be on the bridge 40+ hours a week? Just how often do they run into new species and aliens? On a ship of 1000 people, shouldn't she have some, I don't know, appointments? Research? Etc. etc. During a crisis, you can bet someone's fiddling their thumbs, and it ain't Wesley.

Let's say you're a random Starfleet captain. Are you stuck in an anomaly and need a psychic? You get Troi. Are you stuck in an anomaly and you have a non-telepathic counselor who's every bit as good, if not better, has more experience, and is more decorated than Troi? You're SOL there, buddy, thanks to the writers creating just about the only time you'd need a "counselor" in such a situation.

By contrast (and I can't believe I'm doing this), let's look at Neelix. While not a pure counselor/scientist per se, he was pretty darn close to it in function, keeping up ship's morale, helping Janeway during first contact missions, being the go-to guy if you needed to talk to someone. All in all, like Troi. Yet how many times did we see him on the bridge during an anomaly or a battle? Very infrequently, usually because the situation never called for a morale officer.

 

[CaptainStoner]

I will always posit that having the ship's therapist sitting next to the captain in almost all emergencies is one of those things that dates TNG into the 80s.

That would be very 90's. Except Troi wasn't just a "therapist". Was she not a Starfleet Officer? Graduated from the same academy. Lt. Commander, a Senior, Bridge Officer. And, one that can sense the emotions/intentions across vast distances.
The writing may not have always done the character justice, but if we take the character at face value, you would want her on the Bridge during a "situation".
I almost wish some of the S6-S7 developments with Troi had happened much earlier. With her in "alternate" uniforms throughout most of the show, people forget they're looking at one of the highest ranking officers on the ship.

 

[Cyke101]

I will always posit that having the ship's therapist sitting next to the captain in almost all emergencies is one of those things that dates TNG into the 80s.

That would be very 90's. Except Troi wasn't just a "therapist". Was she not a Starfleet Officer? Graduated from the same academy. Lt. Commander, a Senior, Bridge Officer. And, one that can sense the emotions/intentions across vast distances.
The writing may not have always done the character justice, but if we take the character at face value, you would want her on the Bridge during a "situation".
I almost wish some of the S6-S7 developments with Troi had happened much earlier. With her in "alternate" uniforms throughout most of the show, people forget they're looking at one of the highest ranking officers on the ship.

Why Troi and not, say, Dr. Crusher? Troi never tried to keep the crew calm during a situation (she never had to, either). And no, I'd still put it down as 80s behavior rather than the 90s. Now, if everyone started blaming each other to avoid responsibility for a mistake, then yes, I'd claim that as the 90s.

But you're going down the route of Troi Vs. Counselor. You're citing her powers as an asset, but how many counselors would have her powers to begin with? If you didn't have Troi but another, non-telepathic counselor, would you still have that person in a bridge officer role to study a comet?

As for rank, the show emphasized that even if Troi had a high rank, that didn't immediately qualify her for command or necessarily a bridge officer position. I point to, again, Crusher, in a similar field (science/medical) and higher rank, but not a bridge officer (Trek always had the problem of confusing a main cast member for senior or bridge officer). Also, there was the subplot of Troi having to study and take the commander's test in order to further herself. Someone like Worf or LaForge, two people who rank under Troi either officially or seniority, would get command before she would.

For that matter, the Enterprise-D/E seems to be the only ship in Starfleet with a bridge position just for the counselor. Ezri Dax served on the Defiant, but usually not in any sort of counselor type of role, and she was almost never in Ops while at DS9. Contrast to Troi, who only "recently" learned how to drive.

 

[EmperorTiberius]

And what would Troi say after Shinzon's 17th salvo? "Sir, I sense hostility."

Besides, the show made it clear that above all else, Picard himself was a skilled diplomat. If he can't get you to put your guns down, nothing will.

he needs advisers, and Troi was perfectly fine, especially when dealing with new races. It's not a military ship

Never said it was a military ship (now you're putting words in my mouth). Sure Picard needs advisors, but does he need a counselor during a time warp or a battle? The writers nearly eliminated Troi early on in TNG, and it eventually got to the point where the crew would get into tailor-made situations specifically where she herself would be specifically needed (frankly, not necessarily a counselor, either). Is it sufficient to warrant the ship's therapist as a bridge officer? After all, Dr. Crusher isn't one -- she has her own office, her own department, commands a higher rank, and is often herself crucial to first contact missions. In Crusher's case, she only goes up to the bridge if she wants to or if the situation calls for it. Does the therapist need to be on the bridge 40+ hours a week? Just how often do they run into new species and aliens? On a ship of 1000 people, shouldn't she have some, I don't know, appointments? Research? Etc. etc. During a crisis, you can bet someone's fiddling their thumbs, and it ain't Wesley.

Let's say you're a random Starfleet captain. Are you stuck in an anomaly and need a psychic? You get Troi. Are you stuck in an anomaly and you have a non-telepathic counselor who's every bit as good, if not better, has more experience, and is more decorated than Troi? You're SOL there, buddy, thanks to the writers creating just about the only time you'd need a "counselor" in such a situation.

By contrast (and I can't believe I'm doing this), let's look at Neelix. While not a pure counselor/scientist per se, he was pretty darn close to it in function, keeping up ship's morale, helping Janeway during first contact missions, being the go-to guy if you needed to talk to someone. All in all, like Troi. Yet how many times did we see him on the bridge during an anomaly or a battle? Very infrequently, usually because the situation never called for a morale officer.

As I said, it's not a military ship, they don't get into battle several times a day, more like every few months. If I am stuck in an anomaly, and I have Troi there, I will leave her there, even though she can't help me. Just like my xo couldn't help me out, but I'd leave him there as well. They are there to advise me. How can you compare them to Neelix, he's not an officer, no experience, no degrees, unlike Troi?

I really don't have a clue what point you are trying to make.

 

[Cyke101]

he needs advisers, and Troi was perfectly fine, especially when dealing with new races. It's not a military ship

Never said it was a military ship (now you're putting words in my mouth). Sure Picard needs advisors, but does he need a counselor during a time warp or a battle? The writers nearly eliminated Troi early on in TNG, and it eventually got to the point where the crew would get into tailor-made situations specifically where she herself would be specifically needed (frankly, not necessarily a counselor, either). Is it sufficient to warrant the ship's therapist as a bridge officer? After all, Dr. Crusher isn't one -- she has her own office, her own department, commands a higher rank, and is often herself crucial to first contact missions. In Crusher's case, she only goes up to the bridge if she wants to or if the situation calls for it. Does the therapist need to be on the bridge 40+ hours a week? Just how often do they run into new species and aliens? On a ship of 1000 people, shouldn't she have some, I don't know, appointments? Research? Etc. etc. During a crisis, you can bet someone's fiddling their thumbs, and it ain't Wesley.

Let's say you're a random Starfleet captain. Are you stuck in an anomaly and need a psychic? You get Troi. Are you stuck in an anomaly and you have a non-telepathic counselor who's every bit as good, if not better, has more experience, and is more decorated than Troi? You're SOL there, buddy, thanks to the writers creating just about the only time you'd need a "counselor" in such a situation.

By contrast (and I can't believe I'm doing this), let's look at Neelix. While not a pure counselor/scientist per se, he was pretty darn close to it in function, keeping up ship's morale, helping Janeway during first contact missions, being the go-to guy if you needed to talk to someone. All in all, like Troi. Yet how many times did we see him on the bridge during an anomaly or a battle? Very infrequently, usually because the situation never called for a morale officer.

As I said, it's not a military ship, they don't get into battle several times a day, more like every few months.

Battle, anomaly, mysteries, other situations that really wouldn't require a counselor, seem to happen every few days and weeks, actually. Thanks to the stardate system, we know all these things happen far more frequently than you think.

If I am stuck in an anomaly, and I have Troi there, I will leave her there, even though she can't help me. Just like my xo couldn't help me out, but I'd leave him there as well. They are there to advise me.

The XO has another duty on top of advising: he has to make sure the captain's orders are carried out. He has to support and reinforce/compliment the captain's command style and must be ready to take over if the situation calls for it, above anyone else. Those are three items that are definitely not in the job description of a counselor. To say he's merely an advisor severely downplays the role of XO.

I really don't have a clue what point you are trying to make. You make no sense whatsoever.

I think it's quite simple: the situations that require a counselor to be on the bridge are so few and far between that the counselor doesn't need to be a bridge officer (and probably has more important things to do in the majority of time). To have a therapist by your side at all times in all emergencies is a dated idea. How is that so hard to comprehend?

Otherwise, explain to me why no other Starfleet vessel we've seen has no bridge officer counselor, or why Troi was nearly written out of the show? Troi herself may or may not be essential, but not the role of counselor, when it comes to daily bridge operations. (for that matter, when Troi is off-duty, who relieves her? Crusher has nurses and other doctors; Data, LaForge, and Worf have any number of ensigns under them; Picard has his senior staff. Who takes over for Troi at the end of the day? If the job is so essential as a bridge position, why no relief officer?)

 

[EmperorTiberius]

So your whole point is that she shouldn't be part of the bridge crew? How does she evaluate crew performances then? And the fact that she'd only behind Captain and XO in importance when it comes to alien life forms (which is the primary mission of the ship) means nothing?

Some little ship like Defiant with a different mission doesn't need one, a Galaxy with the primary mission of exploration and such a huge crew complement does and on the bridge, so that she knows what's going on.

Again, you seem to think that the role is that of a therapist, but it's much more than that. She is an officer as well and a alien expert and acts in an advisory role.

Your way of thinking is wrapped around a 20th century "shrink" and it's not the same at all.