Was the Betazed taken back by Starfleet ?
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Re: Was Betazed taken back by Starfleet ?
Nothing was ever mentioned, but if it hadn't been liberated earlier, the Dominion would left it during "The Dogs of War" when the Founder ordered the Dominion regrouping inside Cardassian space and withdrawal from Federation, Klingon and Romulan space.
The novel The Battle of Betazed has the Enterprise-E crew, as well as Elias Vaughn from the DS9 relaunch novels, liberating it between the episodes "Tears of the Prophets" and "Image in the Sand". That's what Insurrection should have been about IMHO.
They were wise to pick Betazed, as it they had gone with Vulcan as they originally planned, they would have had to mentioned it prominently or showed it.
Nothing was ever mentioned, but if it hadn't been liberated earlier, the Dominion would left it during "The Dogs of War" when the Founder ordered the Dominion regrouping inside Cardassian space and withdrawal from Federation, Klingon and Romulan space.
The novel The Battle of Betazed has the Enterprise-E crew, as well as Elias Vaughn from the DS9 relaunch novels, liberating it between the episodes "Tears of the Prophets" and "Image in the Sand". That's what Insurrection should have been about IMHO.
They were wise to pick Betazed, as it they had gone with Vulcan as they originally planned, they would have had to mentioned it prominently or showed it.
Re: Was Betazed taken back by Starfleet ?
I recall reading somewhere that Rick Berman claims to have read this novel and considers it in his canon for the series. I believe it was in that old Star Trek: The Magazine that was released in the US.
More along the lines of he read the back cover of the book...
I recall reading somewhere that Rick Berman claims to have read this novel and considers it in his canon for the series. I believe it was in that old Star Trek: The Magazine that was released in the US.
More along the lines of he read the back cover of the book...
Re: Was Betazed taken back by Starfleet ?
Wouldn't Rick Berman of all people know that there is no such thing as canon outside of what actually aired. I think he needed to have his head screwed back on right.
There is no mention of Betazed being recaptured on the show, one would be safe to assume that the Dominion relinquished control when the female Founder surrendered.
Wouldn't Rick Berman of all people know that there is no such thing as canon outside of what actually aired. I think he needed to have his head screwed back on right.
There is no mention of Betazed being recaptured on the show, one would be safe to assume that the Dominion relinquished control when the female Founder surrendered.
Re: Was Betazed taken back by Starfleet ?
Wow, sounds like a bunch of people piling on Berman for something he may or may not have said, in an unknown context.
I can imagine him saying something innocent like, "I read and enjoyed the novel "Battle for Betazed", and since we're never likely to see that period on screen again I've always included it in my own little personal canon", and then a few years later a bunch of guys on a Trek board call him names for something he never said.
500 years from now, Trekkers will blame Berman for WW2.
Wow, sounds like a bunch of people piling on Berman for something he may or may not have said, in an unknown context.
I can imagine him saying something innocent like, "I read and enjoyed the novel "Battle for Betazed", and since we're never likely to see that period on screen again I've always included it in my own little personal canon", and then a few years later a bunch of guys on a Trek board call him names for something he never said.
500 years from now, Trekkers will blame Berman for WW2.
Re: Was Betazed taken back by Starfleet ?
Since Berman was in charge of Trek at the time if he wanted to he could make anything canon: fanfic, novels, the animated series etc.
Since Berman was in charge of Trek at the time if he wanted to he could make anything canon: fanfic, novels, the animated series etc.
Re: Was Betazed taken back by Starfleet ?
I suspect that if the planet wasn't liberated by "What You Leave Behind", it certainly would have been when the Dominion surrendered. That fleet surrounding Cardassia was supposedly everything they had left.
The bigger problem would have been Benzar. Benzar was not a Federation world and was "liberated" by the Romulans. As Odo said, getting them to give it back after the war might have been a problem.
I suspect that if the planet wasn't liberated by "What You Leave Behind", it certainly would have been when the Dominion surrendered. That fleet surrounding Cardassia was supposedly everything they had left.
The bigger problem would have been Benzar. Benzar was not a Federation world and was "liberated" by the Romulans. As Odo said, getting them to give it back after the war might have been a problem.
Re: Was Betazed taken back by Starfleet ?
Benzar wasn't a UFP world? Hmm. Could go either way. Back in TNG "Coming of Age"/"Matter of Honor", it did appear that Benzites were foreigners, thus subject to the same exchange program that would have Klingons aboard Starfleet vessels and vice versa. Not much point in having an exchange program within the Federation, right? But Benzar could have joined later on. The dialogue concerning its conquest and liberation in DS9 "The Reckoning" is inconclusive.
Regarding Betazed, control of that planet apparently allowed the Dominion to threaten Vulcan, Andor, Tellar and Alpha Centauri. One would thus think it a Starfleet priority that the world be retaken ASAP!
For all we know, the planet was back in Federation hands at the end of "In the Pale Moonlight" already, considering that we never heard Vulcan, Andor, Tellar or Alpha Centauri being under the threat of invasion again.
Timo Saloniemi
Benzar wasn't a UFP world? Hmm. Could go either way. Back in TNG "Coming of Age"/"Matter of Honor", it did appear that Benzites were foreigners, thus subject to the same exchange program that would have Klingons aboard Starfleet vessels and vice versa. Not much point in having an exchange program within the Federation, right? But Benzar could have joined later on. The dialogue concerning its conquest and liberation in DS9 "The Reckoning" is inconclusive.
Regarding Betazed, control of that planet apparently allowed the Dominion to threaten Vulcan, Andor, Tellar and Alpha Centauri. One would thus think it a Starfleet priority that the world be retaken ASAP!
For all we know, the planet was back in Federation hands at the end of "In the Pale Moonlight" already, considering that we never heard Vulcan, Andor, Tellar or Alpha Centauri being under the threat of invasion again.
Timo Saloniemi
Re: Was Betazed taken back by Starfleet ?
^Well, by the end of the episode, they did have a new enemy on their hands. Maintaining supply lines that stretch all the way from Dominion space to Betazed must have been tough.
I just had a look at the Memory Alpha entry for Benzar. It states that it was a Federation member but I honestly do not recall any dialogue that suggests that it was.
In addition, it says that the script for "The Reckoning" originally said it was going to be Bolarus IX that was liberated. That's another planet where there's more evidence against it being a Federation member than for it.
^Well, by the end of the episode, they did have a new enemy on their hands. Maintaining supply lines that stretch all the way from Dominion space to Betazed must have been tough.
I just had a look at the Memory Alpha entry for Benzar. It states that it was a Federation member but I honestly do not recall any dialogue that suggests that it was.
In addition, it says that the script for "The Reckoning" originally said it was going to be Bolarus IX that was liberated. That's another planet where there's more evidence against it being a Federation member than for it.
Re: Was Betazed taken back by Starfleet ?
One wonders, though... If the Romulans can be the ones to liberate Benzar, one suspects Benzar lies closer to Romulan space than to Earth. OTOH, the Dominion was coming from the direction of deep Alpha, that is, from the rough direction of Earth. Can there be non-Federation inhabited, starfaring systems between Earth and Romulus? I guess there can...
Good point about Bolarus being another world unconfirmed as UFP member, and having a couple of known points against membership. Trill is a third highly dubious case. But what about Betazed itself? There is little evidence against Betazoid membership - but is there anything for it?
How is a world proven to be UFP member, apart from an explicit bit of dialogue that says so? Foreigners can serve in Starfleet, so Deanna Troi is no proof. Lwaxana Troi is an Ambassador, a title used both for UFP and foreign dignitaries - we don't know if she is an ambassador for or to the Federation! Also, known foreign experts have assisted the UFP in matters of diplomacy and trade, so whenever Lwaxana does so, this is no proof, either.
And merely being a victim to the Dominion in the Dominion-Federation war establishes nothing either way. The innocent bystanders always suffer in wars...
Is it stated somewhere onscreen that Betazed would be a Federation member?
Timo Saloniemi
One wonders, though... If the Romulans can be the ones to liberate Benzar, one suspects Benzar lies closer to Romulan space than to Earth. OTOH, the Dominion was coming from the direction of deep Alpha, that is, from the rough direction of Earth. Can there be non-Federation inhabited, starfaring systems between Earth and Romulus? I guess there can...
Good point about Bolarus being another world unconfirmed as UFP member, and having a couple of known points against membership. Trill is a third highly dubious case. But what about Betazed itself? There is little evidence against Betazoid membership - but is there anything for it?
How is a world proven to be UFP member, apart from an explicit bit of dialogue that says so? Foreigners can serve in Starfleet, so Deanna Troi is no proof. Lwaxana Troi is an Ambassador, a title used both for UFP and foreign dignitaries - we don't know if she is an ambassador for or to the Federation! Also, known foreign experts have assisted the UFP in matters of diplomacy and trade, so whenever Lwaxana does so, this is no proof, either.
And merely being a victim to the Dominion in the Dominion-Federation war establishes nothing either way. The innocent bystanders always suffer in wars...
Is it stated somewhere onscreen that Betazed would be a Federation member?
Timo Saloniemi
Re: Was Betazed taken back by Starfleet ?
Well, Lwaxanna was the Betazed ambassador to the Federation and she was given VIP treatment. Her Husband, I don't recall his name right now, was a Starfleet officer stationed on Betazed. In the absence of an official mention of membership status, I would consider this definitive proof that Betazed was indeed a member of the Federation.
Well, Lwaxanna was the Betazed ambassador to the Federation and she was given VIP treatment. Her Husband, I don't recall his name right now, was a Starfleet officer stationed on Betazed. In the absence of an official mention of membership status, I would consider this definitive proof that Betazed was indeed a member of the Federation.
Re: Was Betazed taken back by Starfleet ?
I wouldn't, really.
There is no evidence that Lwaxana's husband, Ian Andrew Troi (maiden name unknown), ever even became a Betazed citizen. Or that he remained an active Starfleet officer after putatively becoming a Betazedian. And both of the points are sort of moot anyway, because Starfleet officers need not be Federation citizens (Nog isn't, for one). And even if a single Betazedian decided to switch his or her citizenship to Federation, this doesn't mean his or her native world would have joined the Federation.
And if somebody represents her home nation to another nation via ambassadorship, it definitely sounds like the two nations are foreign to each other...
Admittedly, TOS "Journey to Babel" makes it appear as if Federation member worlds send Ambassadors as representatives to each other. But this may be a false impression altogether, and in any case we can't tell by title alone whether an "Ambassador to the Federation" is a person of Federation origin and citizenship, or a person from outside the Federation interfacing with the Federation. It certainly sounds more like the latter, though.
Timo Saloniemi
I wouldn't, really.
There is no evidence that Lwaxana's husband, Ian Andrew Troi (maiden name unknown), ever even became a Betazed citizen. Or that he remained an active Starfleet officer after putatively becoming a Betazedian. And both of the points are sort of moot anyway, because Starfleet officers need not be Federation citizens (Nog isn't, for one). And even if a single Betazedian decided to switch his or her citizenship to Federation, this doesn't mean his or her native world would have joined the Federation.
And if somebody represents her home nation to another nation via ambassadorship, it definitely sounds like the two nations are foreign to each other...
Admittedly, TOS "Journey to Babel" makes it appear as if Federation member worlds send Ambassadors as representatives to each other. But this may be a false impression altogether, and in any case we can't tell by title alone whether an "Ambassador to the Federation" is a person of Federation origin and citizenship, or a person from outside the Federation interfacing with the Federation. It certainly sounds more like the latter, though.
Timo Saloniemi
Re: Was Betazed taken back by Starfleet ?
Hey, I'm starting to wonder if Vulcan is in the Federation. Maybe Earth isn't a member.
Hey, I'm starting to wonder if Vulcan is in the Federation. Maybe Earth isn't a member.
Sarek was the Vulcan ambassador to the Federation, and Lwaxanna was the Betazed ambassador to the Federation. This is analogous to The United States ambassador to the United Nations, which we are a mamber of, and non UN countries do not have an ambassador to the UN. The UN uses special envoys to deal with non member nations.
Spock was special envoy to Qo'nos in ST6 after the explosion on Praxis.
All Federation member worlds send an ambassador to the Federation.
Spock was special envoy to Qo'nos in ST6 after the explosion on Praxis.
All Federation member worlds send an ambassador to the Federation.
Re: Was Betazed taken back by Starfleet ?
The book isn't too bad of a read. Pick it up if you can, or wikipedia it for a spoiler.
The book isn't too bad of a read. Pick it up if you can, or wikipedia it for a spoiler.
