Was the Ambassador Class phased out?

[137th Gebirg]

^^^ Indeed, yes. Always loved that ship. Although there have been highly vocal debates (some of which I engaged in, admittedly) about whether or not those spires are weapons turrets, sensor arrays or both.

I think Eaglemoss may be doing this one later in its series, if the subscriptions run on long enough.

 

[Richard Baker]

According to the above link they were supposed to be sensor turrets:

It is noted in several reference books, including the Star Trek Encyclopedia, the Star Trek: The Next Generation Companion, and the Star Trek: The Next Generation - The Continuing Mission, that it was originally hoped that a new design could be developed for the Soyuz-class Bozeman, whereas, it was also suggested to make the ship a 1960s-era, pre-movie Constitution-class vessel. Unfortunately, budget demands put an end to that when the costs of creating and filming ships, props and costumes began to add up.

As a result, the art department was asked to modify the already existing USS Reliant miniature from Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan, minus the roll bar and with new sensor turrets, docking port and bridge. A preliminary idea for this "new" Soyuz design, was a modification of the Reliant, dated 14 February 1992, drawn by Mike Okuda on an image of the Miranda-class USS Courageous (NCC-1861), photocopied from the fan publication, Ships of the Star Fleet, Volume One. The final modifications were made by Okuda and Greg Jein.

 

[137th Gebirg]

Really wish we had a close-up of the callouts on that MSD used on the bridge, to identify details on both the turrets and the extended structure hanging off the back. Such an interesting-looking vessel.

 

[Cpt. Kyle Amasov]

The frankenstein-fleet suggestion makes just as much sense as the "empty hulls with weapons" theory and the "lets take 100 years old ships from the museum and throw them at the Dominion". Why does everyone suppose that Starfleet ever had to go to such lenghts to fight the war? Even if Starfleet was so short on starships that they had to "frankenstein" or de-mothball them, where did they get the crews to staff them? From Wolf 359, we get the 39 ships/11,000 dead stat, which translates to an average of a little under 300 per ship. Even with battlefield promotions and all, I'm not sure they could have compensated the crew shortage.

Speaking of the Ambassador, somebody once suggested that some of the background Galaxys could have been Ambassadors. I don't like retconning things, but I do like this particular idea. Or all the Ambassadors were just passing behind the camera? You wouldn't put your old hardware in the first line of attack. That's why we mostly see Defiants, Akiras, Galaxy and other "heavy equipment". (Ignore the Mirandas and Excelsiors. They just seem to have so many of them, Starfleet probably didn't care... )

 

[Ithekro]

Or most of the frontline Ambassador were lost in the first several months of the war. Those days when barely a dozen ships out of a hundred came back from a major battle. Or they were in the other fleets while the Galaxy-class ships were with the Second, Fifth, and Ninth Fleets.

Maybe the much trashed Seventh Fleet that got wrecked at least twice during the war.

 

[USS KG5]

There could have been dozens of ambassadors still in service, and we just didn't see any of them on-screen. Logically fleet operations would be concentrated on particular classes to ease maintenance and damage repair requirements.

We see elements of several fleets during the war, but some others (the third fleet that defends Earth for example) is never seen, maybe the second-line fleet's version of "Galaxy wings" are heavy "Ambassador" wings, upgraded like the Excelsiors were and ready to pour fire on any Dominion fleet that approaches.

 

[Tomalak]

The frankenstein-fleet suggestion makes just as much sense as the "empty hulls with weapons" theory and the "lets take 100 years old ships from the museum and throw them at the Dominion". Why does everyone suppose that Starfleet ever had to go to such lenghts to fight the war? Even if Starfleet was so short on starships that they had to "frankenstein" or de-mothball them, where did they get the crews to staff them? From Wolf 359, we get the 39 ships/11,000 dead stat, which translates to an average of a little under 300 per ship. Even with battlefield promotions and all, I'm not sure they could have compensated the crew shortage.

Those Wolf 359 crew stats were for peacetime missions though - scientists, specialists, and even civilians were present. In wartime, would those Galaxy class ships have the thousand person complement of the Enterprise-D? We know the E-D can be crewed by a couple of people, with the computer doing the basics. All you'd need would be a few shifts for the bridge crew, engineering, medical, security, and additional repair teams. Maybe that would be a third of the peacetime staff? Smaller ships would be reduced accordingly. Plenty of space left for troops, who could be conscripted from the hundreds of Federation worlds.

I don't see manpower being a huge problem in the medium term, anymore than it was for the USA or Soviet Union in the Second World War. They'd need crash courses in starship operations, but officers can be reassigned to smaller numbers than usual per ship and spread out amongst the fleet, with enlisted recruits bulking out the experienced staff.

 

[Timo]

We also don't know for sure whether those Wolf 359 personnel losses were near-total, or just the (smallish?) percentage of people who didn't manage to escape the way Sisko did.

FWIW, the Defiant is a warship similar in size to a Miranda, and crewed by about 40 (plus, or including, our station heroes?) in action. Would a Miranda be similarly crewed, then? Or built sufficiently differently that a smaller or larger crew would be preferable? In the real world, we lack examples of multipurpose ships that would be crewed differently for war and peace, but we do have examples of passenger ships easily quintupling their passenger capacity when said passengers are non-paying troops.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Tomalak]

I assumed older designs have heavier staffing requirements due to less automation, but then again, Scotty put together a rudimentary system on the heavily damaged Enterprise in 2285. It overloaded under stress, but I don't see why an official automation control system couldn't be developed in time.

Was there any mention of the crew of the war-time Enterprise in "Yesterday's Enterprise"? ISTR Yar mentioning "a thousand troops".

 

[USS KG5]

Was there any mention of the crew of the war-time Enterprise in "Yesterday's Enterprise"? ISTR Yar mentioning "a thousand troops".

She actually said "over 5000" troops could be carried, actually way too few for a ship of that size, 50,000 could have been carried with change quite safely you would have to assume!

The crew wouldn't necessarily be any larger or smaller, you would lose scientists and civilians but gain extra troops and damage control specialists.

Regarding the older ships in the Dominion War, I can't imagine their crews even approaching the size of those ships in the TOS era (300-400 on a Connie, so say 250 on a Miranda?) as they literally are so disposable. I'd always guessed they carry about fifty crew like the Defiant.

Possibly fewer, the Defiant is quite highly strung and therefore presumably needs a reasonable engineering staff, a Miranda can be run canonically with as few as 12 crew, maybe in wartime they manage with a couple of dozen.

 

[Timo]

But an antique ship might need more crew than ever before in order to keep moving... She will have things aboard that were not originally built for automation and might not take kindly to it; she will have components that are unreliable to an unknown degree; she will have idiosyncrasies that only certain narrow-fielded experts still can manage, therefore needing lots of specialists rather than fewer generalists; and she will simply be breaking down more often than a more modern vessel, requiring more field maintenance manhours.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Ithekro]

We know that a Miranda-class ship can be run effectively as a combat ship with a crew as small at 50 people. Khan had around that many and was running Reliant effectively. Including repairs.

 

[Tomalak]

True, and Riker commanded a vintage USS Hathaway with a skeleton crew in a combat simulation*. With proper resources, it shouldn't be beyond Starfleet.

Also Timo seems to be assuming those Mirandas in the Dominion War battles are unmodified 23rd century antiques. Surely they are more likely to be heavily renovated and upgraded, like Sisko's Saratoga, which seemed to have the current TNG Lcars computers, suggesting a similar level of central control. I'm not even convinced they would require more repairs than a state-of-the-art ship. Perhaps the Mirandas are the Kalashnikov of the Star Trek world; simple, reliable workhorses with few "moving parts"? The modern ships have so many more parts that can, and do, go wrong.



*What was that supposed to prove anyway? Was the Hathaway supposed to be a substitute for the Borg, or was Riker the subject of the test? I was never quite sure. But it was a fun episode.

 

[Unicron]

Personally, I like the idea that the Miranda designation might specifically refer to TNG-era vessels still in service with modernization. That way you can still have the original design being the Avenger/Reliant subclass and such if you want.

 

[yenny]

This is from DS9 Field of Fire script. Of course I thought it was the USS Gryphon that was mention in the dialogue?

EZRI Assigned to Deep Space Nine three months ago. Before that, he served aboard the U.S.S. Grissom. JORAN Why was he transferred? EZRI The Grissom was destroyed by the Jem'Hadar in the battle of Ricktor Prime. Chu'lak was one of only six crewmen to survive. JORAN Six survivors out of a crew of twelve hundred and fifty... EZRI He served on that ship for ten years. Those people who died... they were his colleagues... his friends...

 

[Timo]

We know that a Miranda-class ship can be run effectively as a combat ship with a crew as small at 50 people. Khan had around that many and was running Reliant effectively. Including repairs.

I deny that either the operations or repairs would have been particularly effective. Khan lost a battle because he didn't know how to run the ship; his crew did the worst they could in terms of denying Kirk of propulsion and weaponry, but still inflicted less damage than Kirk returned with "just a few shots" of battery power. This shows when Khan's team spends as much time repairing secondary systems as Kirk's cadet/trainee crew spends repairing the warp drive...

I also doubt Starfleet would have fifty supermen to spare, let alone fifty per ship.

Also Timo seems to be assuming those Mirandas in the Dominion War battles are unmodified 23rd century antiques

No, all the downsides of the old ship that I list would still apply even if there had been constant upgrades. Especially with those upgrades, really, as the ship would then be a patchwork of modifications with hidden incompatibilities and the need for six repair crews of modification-specific skills where one originally sufficed.

Perhaps the Mirandas are the Kalashnikov of the Star Trek world; simple, reliable workhorses with few "moving parts"?

A Kalashnikov actually requires a lot of maintenance compared with "refined" assault rifles (i.e. it gets dirty easily and has many breakables among its components): the winning idea is that this is simple to conduct in the field, although with varying results depending on user skill.

It could well be that more modern ships have more durable components, too: the Federation supposedly doesn't have a consumer economy and doesn't need to engineer its products to fail, but can aim at increasing excellence instead.

Of course I thought it was the USS Gryphon that was mention in the dialogue?

I haven't seen this one, merely read the transcripts. But either way, we don't see the lost vessel: the Grissom/Gryphon/Gruesome might have been twice as big as a Galaxy for all we know...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Ithekro]

I would think that 50 would work fine for a Miranda. The problems Khan's crew had were more experiance related than anything else. They'd been flying a starshp for a few days I would think. Kirk's larger crew had been training in simulators for a few years.

Though we don't know if Spock had a full crew of 430 or more on Enterprise for the training cruise. There may have been more shifts to rotate more cadets into positions, or they may have been less crew due to not having the usual enlarged science staff used on explorations missions. The Engineering crew was large, and the essental systems were well stocked with cadets. They seemed short a weapon's station cadet after the engagements until Commander Chekov arrived on the bridge..

 

[137th Gebirg]

A Kalashnikov actually requires a lot of maintenance compared with "refined" assault rifles (i.e. it gets dirty easily and has many breakables among its components): the winning idea is that this is simple to conduct in the field, although with varying results depending on user skill.

Gonna have to stop you there Timo. The Kalashnikov family of rifles was specifically designed to go without maintenance in the field for extended periods of time. The moving parts within the lower receiver were laid out with enough space between them so that dirt, coagulated grease, grime, leaves, mud, sticks, even small pebbles wouldn't interfere with its cycling action. The only hang-up I've personally experienced with an AK was a stuck receiver (once) due to excessive powder build-up in the gas tube, being left untouched after use for several years. Nothing that a hammer to the bolt lever didn't fix to break it free. Seriously, one hit with a hammer and it was ready to fire again. It has been, quite possibly, one of the most effective small-arms weapon systems in the world. Certainly the most prolific. The Stoner series of weapons (AR's & M-16 variants) have admittedly improved drastically since their inception in the 60's, but still require far more maintenance than their Russian counterparts. None of the popular makers of AR's and M's have the balls to remove the forward bolt assist off the upper receiver - a kludge band-aid that was put on there in the 60's for the A1 because the bolt wouldn't seat the round in the breach properly after firing only a few rounds. Soldiers are still trained to tap the assist after chambering the first round on a fresh magazine, even though many claim it's no longer required - but "just in case"! And don't even get me started on German weapons and cleaning with their high tolerances.

Just because something is old and sloppy doesn't mean it can't run rings around the pretty replacement that can't get out of its own way. Just look at the M-1911A1 pistol that saw reliable service in the combined US armed forces for almost a century. Finally replaced by the Baretta M-92S/F for Gulf War 1 back in the mid-late 80's and now they're already starting to look for replacements as a sidearm, after only 30 years later. I predict they'll eventually pick a .40-cal solution. A lot of cops have gone to that in recent decades, and most people realize that 9mm Parabellum is a shit round.

 

[USS KG5]

But an antique ship might need more crew than ever before in order to keep moving... She will have things aboard that were not originally built for automation and might not take kindly to it; she will have components that are unreliable to an unknown degree; she will have idiosyncrasies that only certain narrow-fielded experts still can manage, therefore needing lots of specialists rather than fewer generalists; and she will simply be breaking down more often than a more modern vessel, requiring more field maintenance manhours.

Timo Saloniemi

If that were the case, they would probably leave the ship home, surely? At the very least, I'd imagine they would junk them until later rather than put lots of extra valuable crew aboard to fix things after the battle.

As it is, there is no reason to believe the Miranda class ships haven't been constantly refitted like the rest of the fleet, their bridges when seen on screen in TNG have definitely (usually) gained up to date screens and control systems. The crews when definitively stated (like the Lantree, admittedly on a freight run) have been small.

 

[Go-Captain]

The Ambassador might have simply been a ship which isn't all that good, either from the start or due to time; it might have had an extremely limited run, which might have consisted of only 9 or so ships; or they all the remaining Ambassador-class ships were on deep space missions, since at one point in Voyager it is mentioned a ship on a deep space mission has been directed toward Voyager and will rendezvous in ten(?) years (too long to return to the Federation); it might even be a combination of all those things.

I tend to see the Miranda, like the Excelsior, as a multipurpose design that was used for such varied uses as surveying already-charted planets for things like colonization or mining (Reliant), science vessels (Brattain) or a supply ship (Lantree). Most of them would've been pulled away from these duties and sent to join fleets at the start of the war.

I always saw it as the original purpose built combat ship (as far as Starfleet goes), thanks to those big, fore and aft, pylon mounted phaser cannons, and fore and aft torpedo tubes. It has better fire power and coverage than the Constitution class.

There could have been dozens of ambassadors still in service, and we just didn't see any of them on-screen. Logically fleet operations would be concentrated on particular classes to ease maintenance and damage repair requirements.

We see elements of several fleets during the war, but some others (the third fleet that defends Earth for example) is never seen, maybe the second-line fleet's version of "Galaxy wings" are heavy "Ambassador" wings, upgraded like the Excelsiors were and ready to pour fire on any Dominion fleet that approaches.

There's no reason to assume the Ambassador class had any more than nine vessels (at least Memory Alpha lists only up to nine potential ships in the class). If you were writing a story and it involved more Ambassadors it wouldn't be wrong, though.

Post-war, though it might not mean much, when Voyager returns home we see Earth's on call fleet consists of a Nebula class, a couple Defiants, a Galaxy, and a Prometheus.

No, all the downsides of the old ship that I list would still apply even if there had been constant upgrades. Especially with those upgrades, really, as the ship would then be a patchwork of modifications with hidden incompatibilities and the need for six repair crews of modification-specific skills where one originally sufficed.

You are right there are limitations to how far a hull can be upgraded, especially if trying to be economical, however, the whole point of upgrading vehicles or weapon is to eliminate new vulnerabilities, old weaknesses, and extend service life especially without introducing new weaknesses.

In real life, upgrades are carefully researched and engineered, and applied in batches to vehicles currently in use. Each successive upgrade program, be it for a tank, aircraft, or sea craft takes into account all other upgrades and non-upgraded systems to make absolutely sure they work as seamlessly as possible.

Some upgrades are not the kind retroactively applied to old hulls and instead reserved for new builds, but as we have seen in Trek, mid-life upgrades to various classes are a common enough thing. The Enterprise-D was upgraded through the series, as was the USS Lakota (to an extreme degree).