Was the Abramsverse already an alternate universe?

[BlueMetroid]

I've been reading some comments from Mike Johnson (of Star Trek Ongoing from IDW), and he seems to be under the impression that the Abramsverse was already an alternate universe before Spock Prime arrived on the scene.

Has anyone else heard this? Do Orci and Abrams share the same view? I'd love thoughts on the matter!

 

[drt]

As far as I know, there's never been an "official" declaration on the matter. Orci does oversee the comics in some capacity (albeit perhaps more to ennsure they don't contradict something planned for a future movie), so perhaps he's OK with the idea in general if that's the opinion of the IDW staff.

With regard to it already being an alternate universe, I've seen a number of "fanon" thoughts on the matter, the most popular seems to be that the timeline diverged from the Enteterprise-E's trip to the past in First Contact and that Enterprise and the new movies are actually taking place in that timeline.

 

[Bry_Sinclair]

I like that idea. It allows for Romulus to still exist, as well as prevent a single supernova from destroying the universe, retcons Red Matter (whatever it was--why not just make it trilithium instead, it has the power to break down all nuclear fusion in a star) and the hideous Jellyfish-type ship.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Word of God from Orci dating back to a Trekmovie.com Q+A has always been that the timelines diverged in 2233, that they were identical before that. ST'09 supports this with Spock's line that the timeline disruption "Beginning with the attack on the USS Kelvin...". Into Darkness seems to confirm this, by bending over backwards to explain how and why Khan was revived earlier than "Space Seed" (all stemming from the Narada's arrival and the destruction of Vulcan), and with Admiral Marcus' models, which include the Aries IV, Phoenix, Ringship Enterprise, NX-Alpha and Enterprise NX-01, all of which are part of the pre-2233 shared past. There was even a scene, cut from the final version of the movie, explaining why Carol has a British accent now. If the timelines were always separate, there would be no need for any of that at all and they'd never have bothered.

The videogame and comics seem to treat nuTrek as an all-out reboot (extra-galactic Gorn etc), but the movies themselves will always take precedence over tie-ins.

FWIW, the novel writers over in Trek Lit have confirmed a few times that in 2387 (their "present" is 2385) Romulus is burning and Spock is falling into a black hole with Nero. There have already been several little nuTrek references in the books, to things that would be common to both timelines (and the whole branching timeline concept was detailed in DTI: Watching the Clock)

 

[Therin of Andor]

he seems to be under the impression that the Abramsverse was already an alternate universe before Spock Prime arrived on the scene.

Well, yes it was, because the timeline was changed when Nero appeared, many years earlier, and caused the death of Kirk's father.

The videogame and comics seem to treat nuTrek as an all-out reboot (extra-galactic Gorn etc)

How do you know that TOS's Gorn didn't also originate from another galaxy?

 

[-Brett-]

Over the last four years I've gotten a little sick of Enterprise fans thinking that their show was the only one not erased from continuity. Especially considering that their shows mediocrity was what necessitated the reboot to begin with.

So yeah, any interpretation that erases Enterprise is fine with me. If it can somehow be more erased than TOS, TNG, and DS9, that would be even better.

 

[Set Harth]

Over the last four years I've gotten a little sick of Enterprise fans thinking that their show was the only one not erased from continuity. Especially considering that their shows mediocrity was what necessitated the reboot to begin with.

So yeah, any interpretation that erases Enterprise is fine with me. If it can somehow be more erased than TOS, TNG, and DS9, that would be even better.

Nothing was erased from continuity.

I've been reading some comments from Mike Johnson (of Star Trek Ongoing from IDW), and he seems to be under the impression that the Abramsverse was already an alternate universe before Spock Prime arrived on the scene.

What gave you that impression? I found him saying this in 2012:

It’s the “butterfly flaps its wings, causes a hurricane” analogy. We started off with small deviations, but as we proceed, we’re getting further and further from the original timeline. Issues #9 and #10, “The Return of the Archons,” is an example of how the new timeline diverges significantly from the original story. The last movie was the butterfly. This series builds up to the hurricane that is the next movie… the stories will depart further and further from the original series. We will use a few original series concepts as jumping off points, but the new timeline is moving in a radically different direction.

 

[C.E. Evans]

I think it truly depends on whatever floats your boat--it could go either way. The only problem will be when you occur other people who insist on it being just one way.

 

[darkshadow0001]

I've been reading some comments from Mike Johnson (of Star Trek Ongoing from IDW), and he seems to be under the impression that the Abramsverse was already an alternate universe before Spock Prime arrived on the scene.

Has anyone else heard this? Do Orci and Abrams share the same view? I'd love thoughts on the matter!

I think it had to be. Because it wasn't the same as TOS...

 

[Set Harth]

Because it wasn't the same as TOS...

Actually, it was, until Nero's arrival. One of the ways in which this is apparent is that they didn't even update the Eugenics Wars timeframe to reflect actual historical reality - something they easily could have done if they felt that they were working with an originally distinct timeline in the first place.

The only problem will be when you occur other people who insist on it being just one way.

The intention of the writers is what it is. Allowing them to define what is going on in the film they wrote is surely preferable to allowing disgruntled fans to rewrite the plot.

 

[uniderth]

It had to be divergent before that. Just look at the differences between the two Khan's.

 

[Set Harth]

That's due to Marcus/Section 31. In other words the changes happened after the timeline divergence.

 

[Dale Sams]

edit: deleted. I don't want to get in a time-travel argument. They make my head hurt.

 

[-Brett-]

Over the last four years I've gotten a little sick of Enterprise fans thinking that their show was the only one not erased from continuity. Especially considering that their shows mediocrity was what necessitated the reboot to begin with.

So yeah, any interpretation that erases Enterprise is fine with me. If it can somehow be more erased than TOS, TNG, and DS9, that would be even better.

Nothing was erased from continuity.

Every time travel episode and movie seems to imply otherwise.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

That's due to Marcus/Section 31. In other words the changes happened after the timeline divergence.

Not all of them. The changes in "Return of the Archons" cannot be accounted for by Nero's interference alone, since Landru's control of the population is heavily implied to be part of a Section 31 black op that began half a century before Narada arrived. There's also the fact that Klingon ships appear to have cloaking devices in this timeline, which is unlikely to be a consequence of Nero's arrival and is far more likely to be due to the Romulans' using them in the 22nd century and/or the Klingons acquiring the technology from the Xyrillians or the Suliban. And if you want to be REALLY nitpicky, there's the fact of the Klingons' physical appearance: Kor looks NOTHING like his TOS appearance, nor do Klingon uniforms bear even the slightest resemblance to their TOS counterparts. This is also true of the Romulans whose uniforms and starships are both radically different from their TOS appearance; indeed, when we see them in The Khitomer Conflict they're using what appear to be precursors of the D'Deridex warbirds, nothing at all that could ever be mistaken for "Klingon design" as we saw in TOS.

The thing is, we've already accepted that Spock and Nero arrived in a parallel universe. The only thing up for debate is whether it's parallel because of their arrival or whether they arrived in a universe that was ALREADY running parallel to the prime one except for some rather subtle differences. Even in the films, there's some circumstantial evidence for the latter, especially when one accepts that the Abramsverse DOES NOT take for granted the accuracy of any one character's barely-informed suppositions.

 

[Set Harth]

Every time travel episode and movie seems to imply otherwise.

No. Branching timelines specifically do not erase anything from continuity as the original timeline still exists in parallel to the alternate. ( See: Mirror Universe, TNG's Parallels ) Given that all prior Spock appearances in canon were part of the personal history of the Spock Prime character who appeared in ST09, it makes no sense to say that they have been "erased from continuity", not only because multiple timelines exist in the same overall continuity, but also because events in the timeline depicted in the prior canon led to the creation of the branching alternate timeline in the first place. Abrams Trek is not technically a reboot; certain fans just continue to insist that it is.

The only thing up for debate is whether it's parallel because of their arrival or whether they arrived in a universe that was ALREADY running parallel to the prime one except for some rather subtle differences.

That's only "up for debate" if the intention of the writers is ignored.

Not all of them.

I was specifically referring to Khan there.

And if you want to be REALLY nitpicky, there's the fact of the Klingons' physical appearance: Kor looks NOTHING like his TOS appearance

The TMP Klingons looked nothing like the TOS Klingons, and reportedly Roddenberry had said at the time that the audience was supposed to act as if they had really looked like that all along and just go with it. So this is really an old retcon, one which predates anything ST09 did by about thirty years.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Over the last four years I've gotten a little sick of Enterprise fans thinking that their show was the only one not erased from continuity. Especially considering that their shows mediocrity was what necessitated the reboot to begin with.

So yeah, any interpretation that erases Enterprise is fine with me. If it can somehow be more erased than TOS, TNG, and DS9, that would be even better.

Nothing was erased from continuity.

Every time travel episode and movie seems to imply otherwise.

"Trials and Tribilations" would definitely be problematic in this case, but even that would imply the timeline into which Spock and Nero emerged runs PARALLEL to the Primeline without overriding it. If Spock could just perform some kind of quantum signature technobabble calculation, he could probably deposit himself in the actual TOS universe as we remember it from the 60s and then cryogenically freeze himself long enough to watch himself fall into the black hole. None of that will ever happen in the NEW timeline, though.

Actually, the only thing that's still canon in the new timeline is Enterprise and NX-01. As I've said many times before, the overall continuity makes a lot more sense if you take Star Trek Enterprise to be the reboot (the New TOS) and then interpret the Abramsverse movies as being basically "Enterprise: the Next Generation."

 

[Dale Sams]

Word of God from Orci dating back to a Trekmovie.com Q+A has always been that the timelines diverged in 2233, that they were identical before that. ST'09 supports this with Spock's line that the timeline disruption "Beginning with the attack on the USS Kelvin...". Into Darkness seems to confirm this, by bending over backwards to explain how and why Khan was revived earlier than "Space Seed" (all stemming from the Narada's arrival and the destruction of Vulcan), and with Admiral Marcus' models, which include the Aries IV, Phoenix, Ringship Enterprise, NX-Alpha and Enterprise NX-01, all of which are part of the pre-2233 shared past. There was even a scene, cut from the final version of the movie, explaining why Carol has a British accent now. If the timelines were always separate, there would be no need for any of that at all and they'd never have bothered.

I want to interject at this point my own personal fanwank on how Marcus even knew about Khan and found him:

Prime Spock told NuSpock he swore not to tell NuSpock about future events. Now a few years ago when ST (2009) came out, I snarked how the Enterprise was going to spend its five year mission running around stopping the galactic threats that TOS dealt with.

"Botany Bay towed to Starbase 21. Check."
"Lazarus intercepted and dealt with. Check."
"Space Pancakes stopped....check."
"What's a Doomsday Machine?"

But it doesn't make any sense for Spock to pile all of that on the shoulders of one ship. There should be an entire department dealing with the future threats. And that's how the corrupt Admiral (is there any other kind?) knew about Khan.

 

[BlueMetroid]

Over the last four years I've gotten a little sick of Enterprise fans thinking that their show was the only one not erased from continuity. Especially considering that their shows mediocrity was what necessitated the reboot to begin with.

So yeah, any interpretation that erases Enterprise is fine with me. If it can somehow be more erased than TOS, TNG, and DS9, that would be even better.

Nothing was erased from continuity.

I've been reading some comments from Mike Johnson (of Star Trek Ongoing from IDW), and he seems to be under the impression that the Abramsverse was already an alternate universe before Spock Prime arrived on the scene.

What gave you that impression? I found him saying this in 2012:

It’s the “butterfly flaps its wings, causes a hurricane” analogy. We started off with small deviations, but as we proceed, we’re getting further and further from the original timeline. Issues #9 and #10, “The Return of the Archons,” is an example of how the new timeline diverges significantly from the original story. The last movie was the butterfly. This series builds up to the hurricane that is the next movie… the stories will depart further and further from the original series. We will use a few original series concepts as jumping off points, but the new timeline is moving in a radically different direction.

I read it earlier today...I can't for the life of me remember where. I could've sworn it was on Trekmovie.com, but now I can't find it. At any rate, someone in the comments section poses the idea that it's an alternate universe altogether, and Mike Johnson replies with something like "that's the idea" or "what if the timeline split before Nero's arrival?". I'll see if I can find it, ya'll.

Meanwhile....great thoughts!

 

[BlueMetroid]

Aha!

http://trekmovie.com/2013/05/18/trekink-august-2013-star-trek-comics-from-idw-and-other-comics-news/

Check out comment number 8, then scroll down to Mike Johnson's reply at comment number 18.