was Sybok a silly idea ?
- Thread starter DumbDumb2007
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Indeed. IMHO, it's not that Spock hesitates to kill his half-brother, or hesitates to hurt his half-brother. It's that Spock has fallen under the spell of Sybok - just as all the people seen pointing a gun at him in the movie, or otherwise threatening him.
It's not God who protects St Johns and fools in this movie. It's Vulcan telepathy!
Plotwise, TFF holds surprisingly well together. The characters have realistic motivations, and proceed logically towards their goals. They act competently until the point where Sybok robs them of their competence. His mere presence mellows out any active resistance, and whenever he speaks, others hesitate. That's consistent, that's believable. That's rather scary.
Sure, the writing includes some forced humor, but I don't see that as a damning fault - it's better than what we got in ST:INS. The shortcomings of the movie lie in other, well known areas...
Timo Saloniemi
It's not God who protects St Johns and fools in this movie. It's Vulcan telepathy!
Plotwise, TFF holds surprisingly well together. The characters have realistic motivations, and proceed logically towards their goals. They act competently until the point where Sybok robs them of their competence. His mere presence mellows out any active resistance, and whenever he speaks, others hesitate. That's consistent, that's believable. That's rather scary.
Sure, the writing includes some forced humor, but I don't see that as a damning fault - it's better than what we got in ST:INS. The shortcomings of the movie lie in other, well known areas...
Timo Saloniemi
Is that not what I said? Nimoy felt Spock taking a swing at someone was too crude.
Only one that I can think of, and it was immediately followed by an inside joke about it being crude.
Absolutely not. Spock at no point falls under Sybok's spell, which was the point of the "you do not know me" exchange. He is taken aback to see his brother on Nimbus III, but recovers by the time he charges him with treaty violations.
If anything, it was Sybok's judgment that was clouded by his encounter with Spock. Rather than use his telepathic abilities to "see" Spock's pain, as he did with all the others, he presumed he knew what Spock's pain was, little realizing Spock had long since reconciled himself with his childhood.
Actually, I thought that as a director, solely, Shatner did a good job in the composition of his scenes and the choice of camera angles. He was also greatly helped by Andrew Laszlo, the cinematographer. The opening shot on Nimbus III is fantastic, as are the scenes in the officer's lounge and the initial walk through the God Planet. Those scenes show that Shatner took into serious consideration the framing and position of the characters in relation to lighting and other factors.
Good points - Aw shucks, now I'm feeling all guilty and stuff. As a first time effort (I think) in the "other" big chair, I suppose a more charitable view is warranted. I simply remember a feeling of dissatisfaction at the end of ST:V, although some of the rubbish special effects (sub ILM budget perhaps?) did colour my judgement.
Oh to be sure the movie is filled with problems, effects especially, which I agree with you does color one's judgment on the film.
The answer is: Yes. Next question?
I love the idea of Nimbus III as a symbol of UN-style ineffectuality by the Federation.
I like Sybok just fine as well. Monolithic ST alien cultures annoy me, so I welcome depictions of 'heretical' Vulcans, etc.
And thank goodness he wasn't played by Sean Connery.
I was disagreeing with the your statement "Vulcans don't get into physical struggles."
Probably in "Return of the Archons".
However, often, when he and the crew were in danger, Spock did resist or fight . Of course, if he could, he'd apply the FSNP (Famous Spock Neck Pinch), but at times he'd have to grapple with opponents for a while; examples being struggling with the Capellans in "Friday's Child", all the swordsplay in "Bread and Circuses", fighting Ghengis Khan with a wooden staff in "The Savage Curtain", struggling with a guard before FSNPing him at the top of "For the World Is Hollow...", and all sword fighting in "Dave of the Dove", etc.
My point being that Spock did and would resist, and even if he couldn't bring himself to shoot Sybok, he could and should have dropped the gun and tried to restrain Sybok for long enough for Kirk to go get help, warn the crew, or at least lock off the hangar deck.
I don't think we're in much disagreement here. I was extrapolating. Let's remember, Nimoy was defining the race at the time. It was he who coached all other actors who played Vulcans on how to behave. I don't mean that Vulcans will never engage in combat, merely that physical struggles are avoided in their portrayal, for the same reason Yoda was never seen flitting about with a light saber.
Until Lucas lost his mind.
There's a danger in taking the scene too literally. Within the framework of the plot, the choices were kill Sybok or surrender.
And a physical struggle would have been redundant, since he had just kicked Kirk's ass. Spock would have had to lose. So why show yet another fight?
My problem with Sybok was that he really didn't act like a renegade Vulcan. The reason Vulcan's repress their emotions, now correct me if I'm wrong here, is because they have no moderate emotions. It's nothing but highs and lows. Thus making them even more emotionally unstable then Klingons. Sybok seemed fully in control of his emotions.
Of course they have "moderate emotions" or they wouldn't be able to repress them at all period. They repress them because in their view emotions lead to way too many conflicts on their homeworld not simply because they "had them" to begin with. The whole Vulcan emotional repression is a philosophical choice not a biological imperative.
Its not such a black/white matter, we've never been told that it is either. I suspect there is a great spectrum of emotions like every other organic being shows.
Sharr
Why? For precisely the reasons we are discussing it. It feels dramatically false. Kirk could easily have run out of the hangar at that point...there was nothing to stop him. The scene could have been tweaked a dozen ways so that the only way out was to shoot Sybok, but, no, they did it in a stupid, melodramatic way that raises all kinds of questions because it doesn't smell right.
The idea of Sybok is not necessarily a silly idea. Being half brothers is a bit silly. It would have been better IMO to have Sybok be Spocks uncle.
As for the Shats ability as director. I felt he did a good job with what he had to work with. The way he set up his shots and such were great. ILM not being available to do the effects and a bad script is what doomed this movie.
As for the Shats ability as director. I felt he did a good job with what he had to work with. The way he set up his shots and such were great. ILM not being available to do the effects and a bad script is what doomed this movie.
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