Was Star Trek Wallowing In Arrogance, Or...?
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How exactly would the Federation handle having the Klingon Empire as a member, if they can't allow something as simple as Worf's legal recourse for the murder of his mate?
Given that the Federation and the Empire are debatable of similar sizes, who exactly would be joining whom as a member?
I see the Vulcans as a counterpart to the modern day, self important, "academic lack-of-intelligentsia," who would like to authoritatively tell the rest of us little people the best way to run and manage our lives ... when they themselves frequently haven't a clue.
It's most humorous the way a Vulcan, so logical and rational, is depicted as just plain wrong in a lot of episodes, often because they can't combine reason with common sense. They're blinded by their racial/species philosophy.
"Depraved" as a description works how? Each of the three cultures mentioned do display a core aspect of basic Humanity. Ferengi, Klingons, Bajorans ... Commerce/Capitalism, Aggression/Passion, Belief/Faith. All the things that future Humanity are supposed to be "beyond." The post-scarcity (replicator) money-less economy is to have replace the Ferengi. Cool reason and rational understanding to have replace the Klingons and knowledge of everything and an atheistic creed to have replace the Bajorians.
But the further we move away from these three alien species, the less Human we become. The reason many viewers loved and secretly admired the Ferengi was they are the old fashion self made men, not all Humans want to be handed things out of a slot in the wall, they wish and desire to achieve their personal successes on their own with their own two hand, the Ferengi way. The Ferengi are cattle barons and railroad tycoons.
The Klingons are unstifled by the enslavement of political correctness, they aren't ground down under the heel of a controlling society that incrementally destroys their very souls. Klingons speak openly and loudly of their believes and passions, their loves and hates. Everyone's opinions are not equal and we're not all "the same." The more 24th century Human Worf became, the smaller he was as a character, he emerge fully only when he embraced his "Klingon-ness."
The Bajorians didn't get the Email that they were supposed to be embarrassed and ashamed about possessing a religious faith, they don't let two or three people out of a hundred force them to repress their open expression of conviction so as that the two or three wouldn't feel "uncomfortable.' Somewhat like the Klingon (also the Ferengi) they're honest and unrepressed on the matter.
These three alien species are important because they represent what some (many) people feel they're gradually losing, which is why we like to see them ... and maybe want to be a bit like them.
The cultures that are truely depraved in the Trek universe are the Borg and the Dominion, because when you boil it down, they both are simply slave cultures.
Which is inhabited by a whole different realm of arrogance.
Er- Wow... Sorry for not specifying who I meant to reference.
The Security Council IS the powerful arm of the UN and afghanistan is NOT a member of that branch. The gerneral assembly is pointless to even mention...
I think the best of Star Trek has done a really good job of having the best of humanity (at least in terms of what we seen on the show) struggle to maintain its sense of code, ethics etc in the face of a universe worth of culture. Of course the franchise has at different times shown a certain amount of arrogance in its writing, stories, characters and so forth, but I also believe there's been sincere attempts on many occasions to show an attempt at bettering humanity by breaking down that arrogance and trying to come to terms with the fact that there's a lot more going on than what we have.
I'm not sure I'm expressing this thought very well. Sorry.
I'm not sure I'm expressing this thought very well. Sorry.
How do we know that the Federation doesn't have its' own equivalent of the Security Council? Made up of Earth, Vulcan, Andor and Tellar. It could be that member states outside those four carry little sway in Federation leadership?
That might be what is being referred to, when various characters speak of the "Federation Council," a relatively small assembly of members.
Then there would also be a much larger legislature composed of the entirety of the 150 plus membership, you never hear about them on the show because they are largely irrelevant.
Then there would also be a much larger legislature composed of the entirety of the 150 plus membership, you never hear about them on the show because they are largely irrelevant.
The Federation has to drawn the line somewhere. If it's members consider murder and blood revenge to be wrong - and I don't see why that would be a uniquely human belief, not shared by other member species - why should the Federation be obliged to let the Klingons keep it? Or let the Ferengi mistreat their woman? Just because something is a cultural trait (and surely there's much more to both cultures than those things) doesn't make it sacred and automatically good. The Federation is not and is not meant to be some universally all-inclusive club. It's a grouping of like-minded species with some mutually-determined standards that need to be met.
I wonder why the Koon-ut-Kal-i-fee (marriage or challenge), which is a fight to the death, is allowed to continue to take place on Vulcan? Why Vulcans are allowed to force their young children into arranged marriages? Why are Vulcans allowed to push their children into an emotionless existence which isn't natural for them, when humans know that it isn't in the childs' best interest?
Because we've been told that the Vulcans are the 'good guys'.
Were the Andorians' forced to give up the Ushaan ritual when joining the Coalition of Planets?
At the risk of getting more political than this thread already is, I think that the "respect other culture's belief systems" generally applies for a lot of folks on the SMALL stuff and then it gets murkier when it gets to the bigger stuff.
Example: voluntarily refraining from eating certain foods-fine, because it generally doesn't do much harm and it's a personal choice.
Forced arranged marriages-whoa, now were getting into violations of people's rights and there are consent issues. You can't get away from moral issues by simply saying "that's their culture." '
Therefore it makes perfect sense that the Federation would expect member cultures to adhere to common standards to join-like when Sisko said Bajor returning to a caste system would be a deal-breaker for their membership.
That's part of being an organization that adheres to certain values-otherwise the organization wouldn't stand for very much.
Example: voluntarily refraining from eating certain foods-fine, because it generally doesn't do much harm and it's a personal choice.
Forced arranged marriages-whoa, now were getting into violations of people's rights and there are consent issues. You can't get away from moral issues by simply saying "that's their culture." '
Therefore it makes perfect sense that the Federation would expect member cultures to adhere to common standards to join-like when Sisko said Bajor returning to a caste system would be a deal-breaker for their membership.
That's part of being an organization that adheres to certain values-otherwise the organization wouldn't stand for very much.
But the Vulcans' have arranged marriages that can only be broken by mortal combat.
Sometimes, I think they had to include these cultures in order give fans something they can relate to more.
Or have some human have these qualities.
Since humans are portrayed as having evolved out needing money, and having so many "superior" qualities, it would make for some boring episodes.
Even Q described 24th century humans this way, for all the wrong reasons though:
Human society (at times) appear faithless, extremely tech oriented and bland.
Other cultures seem freer to express their desires and beliefs.
I've noticed characters like Quark, Garak, Kira and Roxanna Troi get to express things in ways that the humans never do, yet the fans can instantly understand.
Humans don't curse much (except for Data and maybe a few dammits) while other cultures do.
It's ironic that many fans end up looking closer at the alien cultures than the human ones.
Or have some human have these qualities.
Since humans are portrayed as having evolved out needing money, and having so many "superior" qualities, it would make for some boring episodes.
Even Q described 24th century humans this way, for all the wrong reasons though:
Human society (at times) appear faithless, extremely tech oriented and bland.
Other cultures seem freer to express their desires and beliefs.
I've noticed characters like Quark, Garak, Kira and Roxanna Troi get to express things in ways that the humans never do, yet the fans can instantly understand.
Humans don't curse much (except for Data and maybe a few dammits) while other cultures do.
It's ironic that many fans end up looking closer at the alien cultures than the human ones.
Those are all good points.
But regarding the Vulcans, we have to remember all those things you mentioned aren't just purely cultural, they derive from some fundamental biological differences, those being the pon farr and Vulcan telepathy. Koon-ut-Kal-i-fee is probably allowed because in that case, you have only two choices: a Vulcan in pon farr that isn't satisfied in the 'ordinary' way will either participate in a fight to death, or die anyway. I doubt duelling to death is allowed in 'normal' circumstances. With Klingons, none of this is present.
As for arranged marriages, I'm pretty sure pon farr has a telephatic side to it as well - the two mates need to have a telephatic link. Perhaps this link can only be established at a young age, when the child is not yet ready to decide for itself. By arranging a future mate and the needed telephatic link, the parents ensure the child will one day not be threatened by death.
Well, if Vulcans are to be believed, the alternative is allowing them to experience extremely violent emotions that would probably destroy them, so it is in the child's best interest. But we could also ask why are human parents allowed to teach religion to their children...
Well, obviously we don't know, maybe, maybe not. But we have to remember morals (and with them, the standards demanded by the Federation from it's members) evolve all the time. It's possible they abandoned it of their own will, just like the humans have. And even if it was a requirement for joining, I wouldn't call that forced. Nobody was forcing them to become members, if they gave up on it so they could join, it was their own choice to change their culture.
Now, I'm not saying this is all how it 'really' works, those are just theories but the point is the situations are more complicated than they seem. But even if all these explanations aren't valid, and say, Vulcans are allowed to keep their 'barbaric' non-human practices, doesn't it all just mean human values aren't forced on member species? Sure, the Federation can then be accused of double standards, but that's not the topic of this thread...
EDIT: But having said that, I have to examine the whole idea that the Federation has a problem with Klingons fighting to death. Here's the script of 'Reunion':
Firstly, the one having the problem here is Picard personally, as a commanding officer, not the Federation as a whole. Another captain might have reacted differently. We have no idea what the Federation's official position is.
And secondly, while it can certainly be interpreted that Picard is personally displeased and disappointed that Worf has killed someone, nowhere is the murder itself stated as a violation of Starfleet principles. He fully recognizes that all was according to Klingon law and customs. What he states as the problem is the second bolded part - by following his culture's customs in this case he disregarded his duties and orders - abandoned his post, caused a major incident and unauthorizedly interfered in a delicate political situation etc.
Just like if, for example, a pacifist human crewmember refused an order to fire his weapon due to his beliefs.
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a bad choice of an example on my point. I was really just trying to argue against the idea advanced by some in this thread and others that somehow the Federation adhering to a set of values and principles constitutes "arrogance."
Don't forget the Kahs-wan survival test, the lovely cultural ritual where young Vulcan children are driven out of their homes and into the deadly Vulcan desert. Charming.
Not always, arranged marriages can be matters of social and family obligation. Even on Earth today, not all Humans marry for romance, marriages can be practical arrangements. I've meet several people in my life in formal arranged marriages, one of my best friends is going to be in one, she became engaged at eight and hasn't seen her fiancés since she was seventeen, but they exchange frequent emails.
It's really is a case of cultural diversity. Just because you don't believe in something, doesn't mean everyone shares your beliefs. It's pretty clear that Vulcans at least don't marry for romance. Now this can be taken to far, a race that engaged in chattel slavery would likely be excluded, however some of my own ancestors left Europe through endentured servitude, so I would have that be allowed.
You have to remember that the Andorians were amoung the small group who formed the Federation. They didn't join the Federation, they created it around themselves. Same with the Vulcans. Why would either race create a Federation that forbid important cultural or societal practices of theirs?
How could the Federation "out-law" an aspect of one of it's own founders. The Federation is a assemblage of representatives of it's various members. The Federation doesn't exist somehow on it's own, in a separate reality. If hypothetically the majority of Federation member had, let's say, death duels ... then death duels would be perfectly legal within the Federation. If two-third of the founder worlds practiced arranged marriages, then they would be legal, and perhaps even the Federation norm.
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The Federation - as statet multiple times - is an alliance of species who follow the same fundamental moral values.
These species choose themselves, of their own free will, to embrace these values and to enter the Federation.
Condoning slavery or murder - to the point of allowing species with such values to enter the Federation - is a betrayal of the fundamental values on which the Federation was built. The Federation would loose any value it has, it would become only a temporary alliance that stands for nothing except opporunistic strength in numbers.
And no other treatement has been found.
After a certain age, the children decide for themselves if they want to follow in their parents' footsteps - and we have met vulcans who choose not to follow Surak's teachings.
Also - Surak's teachings are in no way contradictory to the fundamental moral values that all federation members must share - the right to life, freedom, property, etc, etc. Indeed, the teachings support/complement these values.
The Federation - as statet multiple times - is an alliance of species who follow the same fundamental moral values.
These species choose themselves, of their own free will, to embrace these values and to enter the Federation.
Condoning slavery or murder - to the point of allowing species with such values to enter the Federation - is a betrayal of the fundamental values on which the Federation was built. The Federation would loose any value it has, it would become only a temporary alliance that stands for nothing except opporunistic strength in numbers.
A definite and very likely development.
Because during pon farr, vulcans die if they choose neither option.
And no other treatement has been found.
The children have the option of refusing to marry - as clearly demonstrated during Ent. Far from forced, the marriage is voluntary.
Why are you allowed to teach your children christian values? Parents have the right - and obligation - to guide the development of their children as they see fit.
After a certain age, the children decide for themselves if they want to follow in their parents' footsteps - and we have met vulcans who choose not to follow Surak's teachings.
Also - Surak's teachings are in no way contradictory to the fundamental moral values that all federation members must share - the right to life, freedom, property, etc, etc. Indeed, the teachings support/complement these values.
Didn't see the question below when posted. Then I thought you can't argue with some people. Well, you can't, but people with an open mind might learn from the exchange.
Any academics who are telling us how to do things have been hired to do so by someone with the money to do it, private business or the government. The government of course if responsive primarily to campaign contributors, propotionately to their contributions. Academics do not contribute much and have commensurate (lack of) influence. It is foolish to think these people are hired to benefit us. It's not that they have no clue about how to help our lives, but that they are merely pretending to do so while advancing someone else's agenda. That someone is most certainly not interested in the least in helping us. This kind of faux-populist BS also serves a reactionary agenda, diverting anger from the true enemies.
The adjective works as the correct choice. More below.
I will note you agree that the favored alien cultures do show an aspect of humanity you and modern Trek happen to admire. Since they do, then the Federation/Starfleet are not wallowing in arrogance, except when in individual episodes (primarily in Star Trek and TNG before the Klingon redemption,) disdain for militarism, greed, superstition and bigotry are expressed. Federation/Starfleet caharacters are shown repeatedly as respecting, admiring and loving characters representative of the respective values. Frankly, I think this far outweighs the awful indignation felt when an occasional episode (or even line, like Ezri Dax late in DS9) dares to criticize our most beloved sins.
Capitalism is is a relatively recent socioeconomic system, not a core aspect of human nature. The capitalism everyone experiences today is entirely corporate. The capitalism practiced by the Ferengi is some reactionary daydream of small shopkeepers, not even wide enough to include artisans! Ferengi as capitalists are so stupid that it is certain they are representative of Jews.
Aggression is found in dogs and cats, and is not particularly unique to humans. Intellect is, but the whole point of Klingons is that they are not excessively palsied by thought. The Klingons and their imitations, the Kazon, are unwholesomely redolent of African-American stereotypes. Using them to express disdain for equality is a cunning ploy. Resenting political correctness as soul destroying means feeling horribly oppressed because you feel looked down upon for calling people ethnic names or thinking in stereotypes. I don't know why people like that shouldn't be looked down upon, or how someone could be so childish as to be angry that they are not approved for calling people names.
There was no email attacking Christianity. There is the perpetual embarrassment of the outrageous bigotry historically taught by the Christian churches of all denominations, bigotry that contributed to mass murders. There is the perpetual embarrassment of denial of simple reality, whether faith healing, craziness like the Trinity or transubstantiation, creationism, the list is endless. The indictment is so powerful that nothing will ever take the shame of religious belief away. But no two or three people are repressing anything. That's just an outright lie. Religous toleration came about because there religious people were too damned mean to agree about anything and when they exercised their religion in the public sphere, they committed crimes like the Albigensian crusade or witchburnings or agreeing Hitler might be a low class demagogue but, you know, he has a point about those Jews. The Bajorans are a sleazy wish fulfillment fantasy where none of the things inflicted upon suffering humanity by the religious exist.
Formally, every single member of the Collective has an equal voice. Which makes it the ultimate democracy in one way. And the Great Link essentially means the same. It is true that the Dominion is a slave society. We see the slaves, something modern Trek never showed in the Klingon Empire (partly it's falsification, partly it is required by the analogy with African-Americans, who don't have slaves either.) It was never clear exactly why the Dominion even existed, except that collectivists just naturally want to enslave everyone. Ditto, the Borg.This may be satisfyingly tendentious for those who hate democracy or collectivism but it isn't a reasoned or nuanced position, to say the least.
Star Trek began in a better time, and reflected it. It wasn't just Roddenberry's humanism. Modern Trek compromised with moral decay, because you go along to get along. But getting indignant about the relics of humanitarianism in modern Trek is getting downright vicious.
Any academics who are telling us how to do things have been hired to do so by someone with the money to do it, private business or the government. The government of course if responsive primarily to campaign contributors, propotionately to their contributions. Academics do not contribute much and have commensurate (lack of) influence. It is foolish to think these people are hired to benefit us. It's not that they have no clue about how to help our lives, but that they are merely pretending to do so while advancing someone else's agenda. That someone is most certainly not interested in the least in helping us. This kind of faux-populist BS also serves a reactionary agenda, diverting anger from the true enemies.
The adjective works as the correct choice. More below.
I will note you agree that the favored alien cultures do show an aspect of humanity you and modern Trek happen to admire. Since they do, then the Federation/Starfleet are not wallowing in arrogance, except when in individual episodes (primarily in Star Trek and TNG before the Klingon redemption,) disdain for militarism, greed, superstition and bigotry are expressed. Federation/Starfleet caharacters are shown repeatedly as respecting, admiring and loving characters representative of the respective values. Frankly, I think this far outweighs the awful indignation felt when an occasional episode (or even line, like Ezri Dax late in DS9) dares to criticize our most beloved sins.
Capitalism is is a relatively recent socioeconomic system, not a core aspect of human nature. The capitalism everyone experiences today is entirely corporate. The capitalism practiced by the Ferengi is some reactionary daydream of small shopkeepers, not even wide enough to include artisans! Ferengi as capitalists are so stupid that it is certain they are representative of Jews.
Aggression is found in dogs and cats, and is not particularly unique to humans. Intellect is, but the whole point of Klingons is that they are not excessively palsied by thought. The Klingons and their imitations, the Kazon, are unwholesomely redolent of African-American stereotypes. Using them to express disdain for equality is a cunning ploy. Resenting political correctness as soul destroying means feeling horribly oppressed because you feel looked down upon for calling people ethnic names or thinking in stereotypes. I don't know why people like that shouldn't be looked down upon, or how someone could be so childish as to be angry that they are not approved for calling people names.
There was no email attacking Christianity. There is the perpetual embarrassment of the outrageous bigotry historically taught by the Christian churches of all denominations, bigotry that contributed to mass murders. There is the perpetual embarrassment of denial of simple reality, whether faith healing, craziness like the Trinity or transubstantiation, creationism, the list is endless. The indictment is so powerful that nothing will ever take the shame of religious belief away. But no two or three people are repressing anything. That's just an outright lie. Religous toleration came about because there religious people were too damned mean to agree about anything and when they exercised their religion in the public sphere, they committed crimes like the Albigensian crusade or witchburnings or agreeing Hitler might be a low class demagogue but, you know, he has a point about those Jews. The Bajorans are a sleazy wish fulfillment fantasy where none of the things inflicted upon suffering humanity by the religious exist.
Formally, every single member of the Collective has an equal voice. Which makes it the ultimate democracy in one way. And the Great Link essentially means the same. It is true that the Dominion is a slave society. We see the slaves, something modern Trek never showed in the Klingon Empire (partly it's falsification, partly it is required by the analogy with African-Americans, who don't have slaves either.) It was never clear exactly why the Dominion even existed, except that collectivists just naturally want to enslave everyone. Ditto, the Borg.This may be satisfyingly tendentious for those who hate democracy or collectivism but it isn't a reasoned or nuanced position, to say the least.
Star Trek began in a better time, and reflected it. It wasn't just Roddenberry's humanism. Modern Trek compromised with moral decay, because you go along to get along. But getting indignant about the relics of humanitarianism in modern Trek is getting downright vicious.
Don't forget the Kahs-wan survival test, the lovely cultural ritual where young Vulcan children are driven out of their homes and into the deadly Vulcan desert. Charming.
Not always, arranged marriages can be matters of social and family obligation. Even on Earth today, not all Humans marry for romance, marriages can be practical arrangements. I've meet several people in my life in formal arranged marriages, one of my best friends is going to be in one, she became engaged at eight and hasn't seen her fiancés since she was seventeen, but they exchange frequent emails.
It's really is a case of cultural diversity. Just because you don't believe in something, doesn't mean everyone shares your beliefs. It's pretty clear that Vulcans at least don't marry for romance. Now this can be taken to far, a race that engaged in chattel slavery would likely be excluded, however some of my own ancestors left Europe through endentured servitude, so I would have that be allowed.
You have to remember that the Andorians were amoung the small group who formed the Federation. They didn't join the Federation, they created it around themselves. Same with the Vulcans. Why would either race create a Federation that forbid important cultural or societal practices of theirs?
How could the Federation "out-law" an aspect of one of it's own founders. The Federation is a assemblage of representatives of it's various members. The Federation doesn't exist somehow on it's own, in a separate reality. If hypothetically the majority of Federation member had, let's say, death duels ... then death duels would be perfectly legal within the Federation. If two-third of the founder worlds practiced arranged marriages, then they would be legal, and perhaps even the Federation norm.
using the catch-all of claiming "cultural diversity" doesn't really work in a lot of cases, which was exactly my point. Being FORCED to be part of an arranged marriage is a fairly significant rights violation that has a major impact on one's entire life. If the arrangement is voluntary that's a different issue, and the two shouldn't be conflated.
You even mentioned that you'd draw the line at slavery. But there've been plenty of cultures that defended that horrible institution, so why isn't THAT a case of "cultural diversity" for you?
This was my point. Peaceful toleration of differing viewpoints and beliefs is a great part of free society-but you CAN'T "tolerate intolerance" or opression under the guise of "respecting cultural diversity" or it ceases to be tolerance.
You may have to pragmatically ACCEPT the nature of institutions you can't change, but that's a far cry from actually tolerating it as just another viewpoint.
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