Was Spock wrong to abandon the Rigel colonies?
- Thread starter BillJ
- Start date
At the time they did not detect the PK and were in a salvage mode. Kirk felt he owed it to Decker to get the Constellation ready for towing back to starbase.
When the PK first shows up, Spock wisely takes the Enterprise and gets out of the way of the PK but still maintains transporter range on the Constellation.
(I wish later Trek series would learn from the "let's get the heck away from that big bad thing instead of sitting there and getting pummeled tactic".)
With Enterprise's shields up, they couldn't immediately beam Kirk aboard and he had to wait for a tactical analysis of the PK before deciding to have the Enterprise lower her shields to transport the damage control party back. That seems to be in character for Kirk and very prudent (except for assuming that the PK wouldn't fire when the shields were down.)
If he had immediately beamed aboard without checking with Spock on what was going on, well that would have been reckless, IMHO.
YARN
Fleet Captain
Where is your evidence that they are in a turning race?
Spock's line is "we'll circle back to pick up the captain." If they had been flying in a circle around the Constellation, why would they circle back to where they already were?
Well, this much is all I really need. One cannot dangle the prospect of picking up Kirk, warning Starfleet, and then zipping off to Rigel as if it is a certain alternative as a course for action.
(1)You are assuming that Spock is justified in believing that the Constellation has anything left in her phasers banks (for all Spock knows her last shot was her last gasp). (2) You are assuming that they would escape the machine's defensive perimeter before being reacquired as a target. The Constellation, the ship which Kirk refers to as a "dead hulk," the ship about which Scotty reports he is working hard just to keep it from exploding, this is the ship we are talking about. This isn't some class-M planet to spend awhile whittling at with an anti-proton beam, but a mere speck.
If you really want to save Kirk and warn the Federation, you lead the Doomsday as far away from the Constellation and Rigel as you can. With the half-baked impulse control the Constellation has, it at least, has a chance of putting away and making a warning once it is outside the interference.
That's unfair. Decker only assumes command when Spock refuses to help Rigel on grounds that it would be a moot point. Moreover, Decker's report to Kirk suggests that he thought Kirk would agree with him: DECKER: "Since your first officer was reluctant to take aggressive action against the"
I'm using the DVD, original FX version as reference. You could probably watch it on CBS for free, I think.
1. When Spock describes the DM to Kirk over radio we see the DM on the Enterprise's POV (Main Viewer) in 3/4 profile making a right turn to chase the Enterprise. Cut again to dialogue and cut again to viewer and the DM is now in a side profile shot attempting to make a right turn. Cut again to the viewer and the DM is finally mouth facing the Enterprise. That tells us it is not a straight line chase in addition to the line "we're more maneuverable..." The Enterprise is periodically turning and the DM is trying to match the right turns.
2. At no point does Spock turn the ship around to get within transporter range to get Kirk. If you can find any indication that was the case I'm interested to hear about. If they were going in a straight line they would have been well outside transporter range by the time Kirk tells Spock to beam them aboard.
You're citing it out of order. That line occurs after they outran the DM (got out of it's engagement range) and that can only occur if it went in a straight line. A straight-line dash satisfies two criteria to differ from the turning and staying within transporter range scenario above:
1. The Constellation is now out of transporter range necessitating circling back.
2. The Enterprise now moves out of the DM's engagement range which the DM loses interest in chasing.
And that I'm not. I am merely pointing out that the Enterprise with undamaged warp engines is faster than the DM. What Kirk would choose to do once he got back onboard is up to him.
Speaking of speed, if you watch the episode (original FX) the DM turns left and moves away perpendicular to the chase path going to the next system. McCoy argues with Decker and Spock for 4 minutes before Decker secures his position and orders the Enterprise to attack the DM. All this time the Enterprise is still at it's "outrunning speed" heading away from the Constellation. The Enterprise makes a left turn, chases and intercepts the DM from the DM's right side. This would indicate the Enterprise was fast enough to head off the DM despite 4 minutes head start by the DM.
1) Spock doesn't know anything more than the Constellation is still maneuvering and fired a couple of shots to distract the DM. He knows that the DM can be distracted so even if phasers weren't an option, the Constellation herself could have been used as a physical distraction (by flying into the DM's side, getting in it's path, etc.)
2) You're forgetting something very important. The DM left the Constellation completely alone after it was disabled. The DM went and ate the 3rd planet and ignored the Constellation. The DM ignored the Enterprise when it was distracted by the Constellation's phaser and when the Enterprise fired at the DM it immediately became the DM's target. That defensive perimeter applies only to the last ship that fired at it.
Remember there was also that exchange on the Constellation where Decker is yelling at Kirk about "what he was going to do about" the DM "on the way to the heart of the galaxy". And what did Kirk do? Go chase after the DM by trying to find it's warp trail? Nope.
Instead he sent Decker and McCoy back and started salvage operations to tow the Constellation. That doesn't sound like Kirk was in any hurry to find and engage the DM even knowing it was heading right into the most densely populated section of the galaxy...
And I assume that they use their warp drive when traveling faster than light,
and use their impulse engines while traveling slower than light.
one-sixteenth of a parsec in one minute is 107,000 times the speed of light.
I would agree that it's doubtful they were using the impulse engines.
I'm sorry, the edge of the system? Exiting warp in the innermost section of a star system would place the Enterprise in a much better position to scan the entire system, basically from the (not quite) center. The Enterprise itself had survey parts of that sector only a year before, they knew that the third planet was class M and where that world would be in it's orbit, a good a place as any to go sublight. Upon going sublight, the debris Sulu reported was likely that of the third planet.
The Enterprise's transporter maximum range is 16,000 miles. So if she staying within that distance of the Constellation, that a sphere 32,000 miles across. Making a assumption that the DM has a weapons range of at least that distance, the DM wouldn't have to actual chase the Enterprise, just sit on one position and pivot back and forth.
In fact, at one point in the episode the DM fire it's beam "upward" at about a 45 degree angle. That mean that the DM could cover the entirety of the 32,000 mile sphere from a stationary point just 20,000 miles away from the Constellation's own stationary position without even having to pivot. That assumes a 36,000 mile weapons range.
Much more likely, the Enterprise spotted the DM as they were transporting McCoy and Decker aboard, by the time McCoy and Decker reached the bridge the Enterprise had already left the Constellation far behind, evasively leading the DM away from the derelict ship. In this scenario Spock's report to Kirk that "we more malnuverable, but it is gaining" makes much more sense.
They return to the Constellation to retrieve Kirk and party.
When the DM veer away from it's pursuit of the Enterprise and then heads towards the Rigel colony, it must have also been heading basically right back towards the stationary Constellation. This is why Spock want to "maintain a discrete distance" and tells Sulu "lay in a evasive course." Both Spock's circling back and Decker's turn 180 degrees are going to put the Enterprise on the same course as the DM. It's only what Spock and Decker want to do with the same course that's different.
The DM and the Enterprise certainly end up back in the immediate vicinity of the Constellation.
Running with warp engines in TOS is used for both interplanetary and intergalactic travel. Impulse is used for orbits and emergency flight. Also in TOS, Impulse can be pushed to limited FTL speeds, IMO.
Elaan of Troyius said:
That's what it sounds like.
It's more like 30 degrees, but that's assuming that the DM can keep the Enterprise within it's forward firing arc which it apparently can't all the time.
Now if the DM was smarter and stopped pursuing the Enterprise and just backed up gain more firing arc coverage then it would always be in a firing position...
And when does Spock or Kirk order the Enterprise to return to the Constellation? Watching the episode it's pretty clear that they never left transporter range, IMHO. Plus, if the DM was pursuing them in a straight line why is it continuously turning to keep it's mouth facing the Enterprise during that sequence?
Except that the Enterprise intercepts the DM from a near right angle. The DM isn't heading back to the Constellation. The Enterprise turned left to intercept and attack instead of right to evade and circle back to the Constellation. It's not really the same course.
Or is it because the Enterprise is being followed by the DM and Spock is taking the ship back to rendezvous with the Constellation?
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On the issue of what speed was used in the initial escape from the DDM, there are a couple of indications that it wasn't maximum warp.
1) Communications between Kirk and the ship are maintained for a long time despite the heavy jamming
2) Even after Spock has started running away from the beast, Kirk still hopes to be beamed aboard
Both of these would tend to indicate that the active starship stayed fairly close to the derelict one. Moreover, even when Sulu worriedly announces that the DDM is catching up, Spock apparently isn't worried and asking for maximum speed, but wants to linger and help Kirk. When this fails, there seems to be no difficulty in outrunning the beast, as Spock laconically reports on success in doing so when we next see him.
If the DDM was barely gaining on the Enterprise when Spock was doing his best to stay in transporter range, we have two interpretations:
1) the DDM can barely catch up on an impulse-driven starship even at its beastly best
2) the DDM isn't interested in using full speed in chasing the Enterprise at that time
However, even when the DDM is decidedly interested in starships, it still maneuvers with them at speeds that don't exceed those of the ships - even though the ships are said to be attempting transporter use and other non-warp tricks.
Nothing in the episode directly indicates that the Enterprise couldn't outrun the DDM by a vast margin. But Spock cannot. Spock's interest is in protecting the Constellation, and later in helping Kirk carry out his plan. It would make good sense for him to stay down at impulse speeds for most of the episode, then - never mind the bits towards the end where he again "barely" outpaces the monster while warp drive is still down for the rest of the "solar day".
It wouldn't make sense to assume that the DDM can easily achieve warp for the purposes of fighting off starships. Otherwise, the monster would have done exactly that. Apparently, the DDM's interstellar speed is independent of its insystem or combat speed, and may be something the machine can only achieve if given time - or if given enough food.
It might even be that the DDM could not have made it to warp speed at all because it was stopped from eating all four of the L-374 planets. Although if that were true, odds are that the DDM would have gotten stranded at some poor star system already...
But it does appear that there is no moment in the episode when the DDM would be at warp, and no moment when either of the two starships would be, after the heroes first arrive in the middle of the L-374 rubble.
Timo Saloniemi
1) Communications between Kirk and the ship are maintained for a long time despite the heavy jamming
2) Even after Spock has started running away from the beast, Kirk still hopes to be beamed aboard
Both of these would tend to indicate that the active starship stayed fairly close to the derelict one. Moreover, even when Sulu worriedly announces that the DDM is catching up, Spock apparently isn't worried and asking for maximum speed, but wants to linger and help Kirk. When this fails, there seems to be no difficulty in outrunning the beast, as Spock laconically reports on success in doing so when we next see him.
If the DDM was barely gaining on the Enterprise when Spock was doing his best to stay in transporter range, we have two interpretations:
1) the DDM can barely catch up on an impulse-driven starship even at its beastly best
2) the DDM isn't interested in using full speed in chasing the Enterprise at that time
However, even when the DDM is decidedly interested in starships, it still maneuvers with them at speeds that don't exceed those of the ships - even though the ships are said to be attempting transporter use and other non-warp tricks.
Nothing in the episode directly indicates that the Enterprise couldn't outrun the DDM by a vast margin. But Spock cannot. Spock's interest is in protecting the Constellation, and later in helping Kirk carry out his plan. It would make good sense for him to stay down at impulse speeds for most of the episode, then - never mind the bits towards the end where he again "barely" outpaces the monster while warp drive is still down for the rest of the "solar day".
It wouldn't make sense to assume that the DDM can easily achieve warp for the purposes of fighting off starships. Otherwise, the monster would have done exactly that. Apparently, the DDM's interstellar speed is independent of its insystem or combat speed, and may be something the machine can only achieve if given time - or if given enough food.
It might even be that the DDM could not have made it to warp speed at all because it was stopped from eating all four of the L-374 planets. Although if that were true, odds are that the DDM would have gotten stranded at some poor star system already...
But it does appear that there is no moment in the episode when the DDM would be at warp, and no moment when either of the two starships would be, after the heroes first arrive in the middle of the L-374 rubble.
Timo Saloniemi
YARN
Fleet Captain
Spock and laconic, not really proof of much of anything.
We aren't told that the DM is "barely gaining," only that it is "gaining."
We can't really say whether the Enterprise was using the warp dirve the first time around. It would not be the first time that the TOS Enterprise would be using her warp engines in combat maneuvers.
Here is the dialogue before the 1st attack (i.e., warp drive still fully entact).
SPOCK: It came up on us fast, Captain, but we seem able to maintain our distance.
KIRK [OC]: We're blind here. What's it look like?
(Decker and McCoy enter. The viewscreen shows a thing with a big yellow maw, that tapers down along it's body to a pointed tail.)
SPOCK: It looks very much like Commodore Decker's planet killer. And it is pursuing us. (The viewscreen now shows it head-on. A round opening with a small sun partway down the gullet.)
SPOCK: We are more manoeuvrable, but it is gaining on us. Sensors indicate some kind of total conversion drive.
Under your reading of the situation, Spock's comments here make little sense. How could it only "seem" that they are able to maintain their distance if they weren't really trying to? But if the warp drive is engaged and the DD is still gaining on them, it does not appear to be very slow after all.
After her warp drive is knocked out she can only be maneuvering at impulse, but blssdwlf has already argued at length that the engagement was a turning fight, hence the DD machine having to maneuver at sublight speed in the attempt to bracket and fire upon the (relatively) tiny Enterprise.
If this is also true of the first engagement (i.e., we suppose that the Enterprise was not using her warp drive to maneuver), the reasoning applies. That the DM chases the Enterrprise in a turning fight on impulse power, does not mean it is not capable of warp speed.
Finally, the rest of the information we have indicates that the DM is warp capable. It comes out of nowhere when it attacks the Enterprise. It has traversed the gap between galaxies. It is destroying star sytems at an alarming rate. When Decker expresses concern that if they let it go, it will certainly arrive at Rigel and kill millions indicates that it is not lumbering along at sublight speed! If Rigel is, say as far away as Alpha Centauri is from Earth, we are talking more than 4 LIGHT YEARS! Impulse drive is slower than light, so it would even take longer than that!
Even if we are generous and suppose that Rigel is twice as close to this burned out star system, we are still talking about TWO YEARS for the crew of the Enterprise and Constellation to work things out!
When viewed from this angle, the suggestion that the DM i not warp-capable is in a word, ridiculous.
A Word About Warp Drive
Warp drive is not proprietary. It is not something that was created, but rather something which sufficiently advanced races discover. The DM is more advanced than the Enterprise in key ways. It has an impenetrable hull made from an exotic element. It can lay down firepower unlike that of any Federation Starship (the glistening gems of the Federation and the muscle they call in to do the fighting). Decker, for example, marvels that it has an absolutely pure anti-proton beam.
YARN
Fleet Captain
Actually, there is evidence to the contrary. See my last post.
But more importantly, those who maintain that the Enterprise surely can outrun the DM by a vast margin are the ones who have the burden of proof. Here you are reasoning like old Joe McCarthy "Well, I have no reason to suppose that he isn't a Communist."
The Enterprise with working warp drive is faster than the DM because:
1. The Enterprise outran the DM to put distance between it and the DM.
2. The Enterprise passed and intercepted the DM after giving it a 4 minute head start. (McCoy arguing with Decker and Spock on the bridge prevented Sulu from altering course or speed until Decker prevailed.)
As to the turning engagement - the Enterprise would have to use her warp drive to maintain any semblance of maneuverability against the Total Conversion DM. It just happened to be that the DM was closing the gap whether by higher speed thru the turn or better acceleration or braking. It just couldn't turn as sharp as the Enterprise, IMHO.
I have a question because I've never seen the TOS-R version of "The Doomsday Machine" in its entirety.
Does the insertion of new f/x somehow alter the flow of the story? Is there something inserted where there wasn't an f/x shot before?
I ask because if so then this could alter the interpretation of the unfolding events and the characters' behaviours. And if so then I would defer to the original version of the episode because there seems to be little confusion there. The episode was structured to clearly convey what the writers intended.
Does the insertion of new f/x somehow alter the flow of the story? Is there something inserted where there wasn't an f/x shot before?
I ask because if so then this could alter the interpretation of the unfolding events and the characters' behaviours. And if so then I would defer to the original version of the episode because there seems to be little confusion there. The episode was structured to clearly convey what the writers intended.
YARN
Fleet Captain
You've got some good stuff in this thread. Given what you've said, I need to give the original another look.
Three quick points.
1. I think that the proposition that the DM is not warp capable simply does not stand (see my analysis upthread).
2. After the Enterprise gets her warp drive knocked out it is simple a matter of time before the DM will eventually catch her, even though she is still more maneuverable. Thus, Spock's idea (after the warp drive is knocked out) that they can just pick up the Captain and bail is, at least, suspect.
3. The show is ambivalent and vague about the relative speed of the machine. At one moment they "seem" able to keep their distance. At another moment it is closing on them.
The DM appears to move (as is the case with so many other ships) at the speed of plot. When the Treknobabble is unclear, other narrative considerations become important. What other consideration is there? Simple, the moral dilemma faced by Spock and Decker. Decker argues that Rigel is doomed without immediate action. Spock is one who always clarifies, amends, and corrects the assumptions of others, so his statement that he is aware of the facts in Rigel's case is telling.
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The overall story doesn't change but the details are altered.
The main differences IMO are:
1. The New FX puts the battle in the sublight domain due to the external shots of the rocks flying past the Enterprise.
2. The second difference is that in the New FX for the first encounter with the DM the Enterprise appears to take the Constellation in tow while running away from the DM despite Kirk never giving the order to do so and not having any time to get the ship ready as indicated by dialogue.
3. The DM appears to be right on top of the Enterprise in the New FX due to the insertion of the warp nacelles into the Bridge Viewer shot looking aft.
4. The Enterprise "outran" the DM in the New FX at sublight (again due to the external shots with the space rocks.)
Since the New FX puts the space battle between the Enterprise and the DM in the sublight arena, I think it takes alot out of Decker's urgency to defend the Rigel Colonies, hurting the story.
YARN
Fleet Captain
OK, I just checked the video on CBS.com, and the 4 minute thing is, unfortunately, rather meaningless. You make it sound like they argue for 4 minutes and then pounce right on top of the Doomsday Machine, but we really have no idea how much time it takes for the Enterprise to catch up with the DM.
At 22:54 there is a cut-scene of the Enterprise moving from left-to-right with the "chapter/scene change" music fanfare playing in the background. At 22:54 we leave the bridge, compressing time and setting up the next shot. We don't know how long it takes for the Enterprise to catch up to the thing. What we do know is that the fanfare music signals an undefined passage of time away from the bridge, usually into the future to where the next narrative plot point picks up.
As for the angle of attack, this was a 60's TV show, so I would not get to hyper-literal with regard to how they depict the models. Just as you can't sit there with a stop watch and think you are watching a true linear progression of time as the we cut from scene to scene, we have to view the models as offering a sort of approximation or rough depiction of the action. If, for example, we wanted to nit pick, we might ask why the Enterprise has glowing revolving nacelle caps the non-like spikey nacelle caps depicted in the same episode. If you get hyper-literal, you would have to suppose that the nacelle caps are like Transformers robot toys.
I think you are focusing on the wrong detail. The bottom line is that the Enterprise caught up with the DM. The 4 minutes (from 18:47-22:54 is a block of time prior to the cut where the Enterprise is flying on it's original evasion course while the DM veered off at 18:47) is how long of a straight course the Enterprise is on before turning to chase the DM that already has a head start. I did not include a time for how long it took to catch up with the DM as it is unknown but the interception point must be within Constellation's phaser range.
Again, the Enterprise with working warp engines catches the DM despite the DM having a minimum 4 minute head start.
That rough depiction of action is coincidentally consistent to the details of the FX and dialogue though. The DM makes a left turn veering away on a perpendicular course to Rigel colonies and the Enterprise which travels straight for a while
turns left to intercept it. The approach angle from the DM's right would be consistent with the Enterprise's turn angle.
And hyper-literally the ship has retractable spikes and auto-dimming nacelle caps. Doesn't every ship have that ability?
But fails to catch up. Always. Which IMHO justifies more than the definer "barely", so I was being charitable there.
It would be the very first time they attempted transporting at warp. And the very first time transporter range wouldn't be an issue when long distances (such as those always covered at warp) wer einvolved.
If they aren't trying, then it's always possible the DDM isn't trying, either. Spock's "seem" would be the more justified, the fewer players in the game were running at their hard limits. So no problem there.
But there is no proof of the warp drive being used. And the situation is absolutely neutral in that respect: there's no known "default" mode of travel for our starship. Since indications are that the maneuvers were done in order to keep within transporter range, that already is sufficient proof that they were sublight maneuvers, there being no reason to argue to the contrary.
That much is quite true. But there's no instance in the episode where the DDM would be traveling at warp, either. There's the implication that it does so between star systems - but no indication that it does so when "setting course for the next system".
So our remaining options are just nuances:
1) DDM incapable of warp throughout the engagement for reason X, and only capable of intersystem warp
2) DDM capable of insystem warp but opting for impulse for reason Y throughout the engagement
I'm not arguing it must be 1. I'm just pointing out that there's no reason to assume the DDM was at warp at any point of the episode, and it would be awfully convoluted to argue that the two instances where it is barely gaining on our heroes would feature dissimilar drive modes. It seems to be an inherent quality of the DDM that it cannot catch starships, or even come particularly close to doing so, unless these ships engage in risky maneuvering (essentially, lingering) for tactical gain.
Warp or impulse, the Enterprise always outran the DDM, even when burneded with tactical tasks that reduced her speed and options. So, warp or impulse, she could have engaged in various withdrawal tactics, especially after it was figured out that the DDM didn't pay attention to ships once they were outside a certain radius. It's only a question of how much time an effective withdrawal would take, and how much time our heroes would have.
Or, alternately, that Decker is a monomaniacal dimwit. Which is more or less explicitly established anyway; the only question there is whether his judgement on the Rigel issue comes during one of his just as explicit moments of clarity, or during a moment of irrationality. At that point, Spock would in any case be resigned from trying to reason with a madman.
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One more thing to consider (and this is purely speculation) is that TOS warp speeds slow down significantly near a gravity well. When the Enterprise accelerates towards the sun in "Tomorrow Is Yesterday" or in "Operation: Annihilate" it's speed is impacted heavily to the point that Warp 9 is like 5c. Warp 1 still is FTL but higher warp factors appears to gain only a little bit of speed until they can get out past the inner planets and then be able to push into the 800+ ly/day range as seen in "Obsession", "Breads and Circuses" and "That Which Survives".
If we use a model of "in-system" warp speed = slowed to not much past FTL and "getting out to sea" or "between systems" speed = 800+ ly/day TOS speeds then it could be argued that Decker was convinced that the DM had to be stopped before it got far enough away from the system to be uncatchable by the Enterprise. This would also allow for the DM to only slowly gain on the impulse engined Enterprise by limiting it to only a little bit above c and dangerous to other systems once it gets farther away from the star's gravity well All speculative of course
If we use a model of "in-system" warp speed = slowed to not much past FTL and "getting out to sea" or "between systems" speed = 800+ ly/day TOS speeds then it could be argued that Decker was convinced that the DM had to be stopped before it got far enough away from the system to be uncatchable by the Enterprise. This would also allow for the DM to only slowly gain on the impulse engined Enterprise by limiting it to only a little bit above c and dangerous to other systems once it gets farther away from the star's gravity well
All speculative of course The same with "Paradise Syndrome" and an insystem run of several hours at warp 9, only amounting to two lightmonths if we assume the asteroid moved at near-lightspeed, and to less than a lightweek if we assume the asteroid moved at 10% of lightspeed, which is still generous for the asteroid.
OTOH, insystem warp isn't always slow as such; the "Bread and Cicruses" hop across 1/16 parsecs would have been mostly insystem. The key might be that warping initiated from outside a system is faster than the reverse trip; that wouldn't be consistent with the movies and spinoffs, but could cover TOS.
The idea of catching the DDM in the shallows certainly is an intriguing one...
Timo Saloniemi
Well then you've answered my question. The creators of TOS-R changed the story in detail. This goes a little beyond the purview of the new f/x in my opinion. And so if you want to know how the story was meant to be told and exactly what it's supposed to convey then one should defer to the original version of the episode.
