was Spock famous before he joined Starfleet?

[Sci]

(Incidentally, does anyone here believe that Spock was the first Vulcan in Starfleet? If so, how do you reconcile that with Starfleet being a Federation organization and Vulcan being a founding UFP member? Just curious as it I think it is somewhat relevant to the OP.)

I would say Starfleet was a mostly Human dominated institution up to the 23d century..

I think that Spock was the first Vulcan to graduate Starfleet academy and serve on a ship that wasn't solely a Vulcan ship. That's what made him a trendsetter, as well as caused the friction with his father.

I agree with these two assessments. I'm thinking that Vulcans (and other member worlds) probably had their own Academy that their people who staffed their ships went to. They probably shared technology and uniforms, but staffed and operated their 'own' ships,

It's probably reasonable to conclude that the Federation Starfleet of the 22nd and early-to-mid 23rd Centuries engaged in species segregation (with possible rare exceptions for PR purposes) as part of the process of gradually acclimating these previously hostile peoples -- Humans, Vulcans, Andorians, and Tellarites -- to working together. In other words, they're all Federation Starfleet ships, and they all answer to Starfleet Command, but each ship is a "Human" ship or a "Vulcan" ship. Perhaps these are actually segregated into formal divisions of Starfleet that are locally commanded out of that world's indigenous space force, which is itself integrated into the Starfleet Command structure. This would explain why Spock appears to be the only non-Human aboard the USS Enterprise and why there was a Constitution-class Federation Starfleet ship that was crewed only by Vulcans in "The Immunity Syndrome," and would explain why Kirk calls the Enterprise a "United Earth ship" in "The Corbomite Maneuver" and other early TOS eps before they invented the Federation and Starfleet for "Court Martial."

Spock may well have achieved infamy by being the first Vulcan to serve aboard one of Starfleet's Human ships. Given that, it's possible that there may be a Human out there to achieved fame by being the first Human to serve aboard one of Starfleet's Vulcan ships, etc.

But there's no logical way to defend the idea of Spock being the first Vulcan in Starfleet after what would have been at least 50 to 60 years of Federation, especially given that all-Vulcan crew of the USS Intrepid. There's no evidence that he was, and the canon strongly works against it.

sort of like how Galactica 'belonged' to Caprica on BSG.

Galactica did not "belong" to Caprica in any way. It belonged to the Twelve Colonies of Kobol. It might have been named to represent Caprica in the Colonial Fleet, but that's not the same thing. Now, Caprica unofficially dominated the Twelve Colonies, sure, but saying that Galactica belonged to Caprica is a bit like saying that the HMS Ark Royal somehow belongs to England. It does not -- it belongs to the United Kingdom.

So in short, I think Spock was also the first (half-)Vulcan to go to the Earth Starfleet Academy rather than the Vulcan Science Academy (which was no doubt its equivalent),

The Vulcan Science Academy is definitely not the Vulcan campus of Starfleet Academy. Sarek makes it very clear that it is a civilian Vulcan institution in "Journey to Babel."

 

[Praetor]

Is there any reason to belive that Starfleet Academy on Earth was a humans only school? Early on the producers shifted from the idea that the Enterprise was an Earth ship to it being a Federation ship. So a Starfleet Academy would be a school for the entire UFP not just for Earth.

It's true, I may be wrong. I know the behind-the-scenes reasons for it, but I was trying to retcon a 'real' background out of it.

It's probably reasonable to conclude that the Federation Starfleet of the 22nd and early-to-mid 23rd Centuries engaged in species segregation (with possible rare exceptions for PR purposes) as part of the process of gradually acclimating these previously hostile peoples -- Humans, Vulcans, Andorians, and Tellarites -- to working together. In other words, they're all Federation Starfleet ships, and they all answer to Starfleet Command, but each ship is a "Human" ship or a "Vulcan" ship. Perhaps these are actually segregated into formal divisions of Starfleet that are locally commanded out of that world's indigenous space force, which is itself integrated into the Starfleet Command structure. This would explain why Spock appears to be the only non-Human aboard the USS Enterprise and why there was a Constitution-class Federation Starfleet ship that was crewed only by Vulcans in "The Immunity Syndrome," and would explain why Kirk calls the Enterprise a "United Earth ship" in "The Corbomite Maneuver" and other early TOS eps before they invented the Federation and Starfleet for "Court Martial."

Spock may well have achieved infamy by being the first Vulcan to serve aboard one of Starfleet's Human ships. Given that, it's possible that there may be a Human out there to achieved fame by being the first Human to serve aboard one of Starfleet's Vulcan ships, etc.

That's more along the lines of what I was thinking.

But there's no logical way to defend the idea of Spock being the first Vulcan in Starfleet after what would have been at least 50 to 60 years of Federation, especially given that all-Vulcan crew of the USS Intrepid. There's no evidence that he was, and the canon strongly works against it.

I agree, unless the Starfleet in question is Earth Starfleet.

sort of like how Galactica 'belonged' to Caprica on BSG.

Galactica did not "belong" to Caprica in any way. It belonged to the Twelve Colonies of Kobol. It might have been named to represent Caprica in the Colonial Fleet, but that's not the same thing. Now, Caprica unofficially dominated the Twelve Colonies, sure, but saying that Galactica belonged to Caprica is a bit like saying that the HMS Ark Royal somehow belongs to England. It does not -- it belongs to the United Kingdom.

You're right, I meant to say 'represented' but clearly you understand my meaning - the Galactica was also manned primarily by Capricans, was it not?

So in short, I think Spock was also the first (half-)Vulcan to go to the Earth Starfleet Academy rather than the Vulcan Science Academy (which was no doubt its equivalent),

The Vulcan Science Academy is definitely not the Vulcan campus of Starfleet Academy. Sarek makes it very clear that it is a civilian Vulcan institution in "Journey to Babel."

Yeah, I'll concede that one. Grasping at a straw a bit too far off, I suppose.

 

[Sci]

It's probably reasonable to conclude that the Federation Starfleet of the 22nd and early-to-mid 23rd Centuries engaged in species segregation (with possible rare exceptions for PR purposes) as part of the process of gradually acclimating these previously hostile peoples -- Humans, Vulcans, Andorians, and Tellarites -- to working together. In other words, they're all Federation Starfleet ships, and they all answer to Starfleet Command, but each ship is a "Human" ship or a "Vulcan" ship. Perhaps these are actually segregated into formal divisions of Starfleet that are locally commanded out of that world's indigenous space force, which is itself integrated into the Starfleet Command structure. This would explain why Spock appears to be the only non-Human aboard the USS Enterprise and why there was a Constitution-class Federation Starfleet ship that was crewed only by Vulcans in "The Immunity Syndrome," and would explain why Kirk calls the Enterprise a "United Earth ship" in "The Corbomite Maneuver" and other early TOS eps before they invented the Federation and Starfleet for "Court Martial."

Spock may well have achieved infamy by being the first Vulcan to serve aboard one of Starfleet's Human ships. Given that, it's possible that there may be a Human out there to achieved fame by being the first Human to serve aboard one of Starfleet's Vulcan ships, etc.

That's more along the lines of what I was thinking.

Gotcha.

I agree, unless the Starfleet in question is Earth Starfleet.

I actually wouldn't be surprised if the United Earth Starfleet was abolished and its ships transferred to the authority of the Federation Starfleet.

You're right, I meant to say 'represented' but clearly you understand my meaning - the Galactica was also manned primarily by Capricans, was it not?

I don't recall that being specifically established, but even if it was the case, I think that's more a reflection of Capricans outnumbering and dominating the other worlds in Colonial society than anything else.

 

[Captain Robert April]

The description of Spock's in vitro and longer maturation term as mentioned with Sarek is no more canon than the assertion that Spock is the first Vulcan in Starfleet, yet the latter has decades of wider acceptance to bac it up.

You can't have it both ways.

The key difference being that Spock's extensive prenatal stay at the Vulcan Science Academy's maternity ward was written and presented by Roddenberry himself, whereas we have no source whatsoever for the "first Vulcan in Starfleet" feldercarb. So score one for the Great Bird.

However, why don't assume that what we saw was Sybok's ill-informed (or purposeful) dramatization meant to illicit an emotional response from the half human? The whole scenario might not have happened. Spock certainly wouldn't have been likely to remember it.

Because the drunken ghost story angle also covers all the other craziness of that movie. 78 decks, anyone?

 

[Praetor]

I agree, unless the Starfleet in question is Earth Starfleet.

I actually wouldn't be surprised if the United Earth Starfleet was abolished and its ships transferred to the authority of the Federation Starfleet.

I actually wouldn't either, although I'd have probably preferred the body depicted on ENT have been called something else. In TOS, perhaps UESPA was what regulated and administrated the actual officers and mission for Earth?

You're right, I meant to say 'represented' but clearly you understand my meaning - the Galactica was also manned primarily by Capricans, was it not?

I don't recall that being specifically established, but even if it was the case, I think that's more a reflection of Capricans outnumbering and dominating the other worlds in Colonial society than anything else.

I may be wrong... but I'm thinking it may have been a BSG:TOS thing.

The description of Spock's in vitro and longer maturation term as mentioned with Sarek is no more canon than the assertion that Spock is the first Vulcan in Starfleet, yet the latter has decades of wider acceptance to bac it up.

You can't have it both ways.

The key difference being that Spock's extensive prenatal stay at the Vulcan Science Academy's maternity ward was written and presented by Roddenberry himself, whereas we have no source whatsoever for the "first Vulcan in Starfleet" feldercarb. So score one for the Great Bird.

I know, and I tend to give GR a little extra cred for his non-canon musings (crazy nudist 2270s from TMP novelization?) but you must surely understand what I'm saying.

However, why don't assume that what we saw was Sybok's ill-informed (or purposeful) dramatization meant to illicit an emotional response from the half human? The whole scenario might not have happened. Spock certainly wouldn't have been likely to remember it.

Because the drunken ghost story angle also covers all the other craziness of that movie. 78 decks, anyone?

Admitted production mistakes don't need retcons in my book. I'd hate to chalk the bulk of the movie to a drunken ghost story. The only way the GR story concerning Spock's conception really needs to differ from what we saw to still be viable is the longer Vulcan gestation period, letting Amanda actually deliver Spock.

 

[Sci]

Admitted production mistakes don't need retcons in my book. I'd hate to chalk the bulk of the movie to a drunken ghost story.

I, on the other hand, would be quite content to chalk the whole movie up to just that...

 

[Praetor]

It actually would fit rather well with the 'life is a dream' motif going on...

Crap, I sipped the KoolAid!

 

[Nerys Myk]

I agree, unless the Starfleet in question is Earth Starfleet.

I actually wouldn't be surprised if the United Earth Starfleet was abolished and its ships transferred to the authority of the Federation Starfleet.

I actually wouldn't either, although I'd have probably preferred the body depicted on ENT have been called something else. In TOS, perhaps UESPA was what regulated and administrated the actual officers and mission for Earth?

I may be wrong... but I'm thinking it may have been a BSG:TOS thing.

In ENT Earth's Starfleet was shown to a division of the UESPA. To me Starfleet is a generic term like Army or Navy. Any spacefaring race with enough ships has a starfleet. In "Errand of Mercy" the Organians use the term in reference to the assembled forces of the UFP and the Klingon Empire.

I'm also a proponant of "fluid continuity". When they guys in charge make a change its retroactive. Kirk has always been in Starfleet and the Enterprise was always a UFP Ship. UESPA, Space Command and Earth ship belong in the dustbin with "James R. Kirk", the conquored planet of Vulcanis and the Vulcanians.

 

[Praetor]

I actually wouldn't be surprised if the United Earth Starfleet was abolished and its ships transferred to the authority of the Federation Starfleet.

I actually wouldn't either, although I'd have probably preferred the body depicted on ENT have been called something else. In TOS, perhaps UESPA was what regulated and administrated the actual officers and mission for Earth?

I may be wrong... but I'm thinking it may have been a BSG:TOS thing.

In ENT Earth's Starfleet was shown to a division of the UESPA. To me Starfleet is a generic term like Army or Navy. Any spacefaring race with enough ships has a starfleet. In "Errand of Mercy" the Organians use the term in reference to the assembled forces of the UFP and the Klingon Empire.

I'm also a proponant of "fluid continuity". When they guys in charge make a change its retroactive. Kirk has always been in Starfleet and the Enterprise was always a UFP Ship. UESPA, Space Command and Earth ship belong in the dustbin with "James R. Kirk", the conquored planet of Vulcanis and the Vulcanians.

Eh... as fond as I am of the same concept, I'd rather not throw away anything that can't be explained away. (James R. Kirk being possibly the one explanation, but I believe a novel even explained that away as a joke on Gary Mitchell's part.)

To me, there must be a good reason why we didn't see more aliens aboard the Enterprise if there were. If we had an all-Vulcan Intrepid, why not an almost all-human Enterprise? So they all work for Starfleet, and Starfleet was always (for the duration of the show) a UFP organization. That's fine by me. Who says UESPA can't be part of Starfleet? Or that Space Central or the Star Service can't be other terms for the UFP Starfleet Command and Starfleet? If the name 'Vulcan' is a translation of a Vulcan word, who's to say that 'Vulcanis' isn't a more correct, if not widely used translation? 'Conquered planet Vulcanis' might have been a private joke.

I've erupted on a slight rant, and I think generally we agree Nerys but I just think that there's plenty of room for 'creative interpretation' that can ultimately serve to enrich the universe without just saying 'that's stupid, they changed their minds later, let's throw it out.' If it starts detracting, then it's time for the dustbin.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Yeah, I like making the pieces fit too. Sometimes its easier to go with "author's intent". UESPA has been established as an actual organization in televised Trek. My thought is that the Enterprise was on "loan" to the UESPA for a few missions. The UESPA itself is not part of Starfleet but works with it on occasion.

 

[Praetor]

Yeah, maybe it's (roughly) like UESPA is to Starfleet as NASA is to the Air Force?

There might actually be another real world body for which the various military branches conduct research ops that would be a better fit, but I'm sure you get my point.

OT (or back on topic, I suppose ) I wonder why Spock did choose to join Starfleet, a human organization, when he had chosen to live his life as a Vulcan and seemingly ignore his human half?

I firmly maintain this is why McCoy always teased and ribbed him; he perceived an inconsistency in Spock's 'logic' and demanded to make Spock acknowledge it, and to understand it himself. That Spock's a walking enigma.

 

[Captain Robert April]

Howzabout this: the ships are Starfleet registered, but the operating authority is delegated to the major Federation members, specifically, those who have their own sufficiently large space program. The Enterprise operates under the United Earth Space Probe Agency, the Intrepid operated under some office of Vulcan Space Central or the Vulcan Science Academy.

And that might be a way to work in a variation of the "Spock is the first Vulcan in Starfleet" idea. The notion of Vulcan operating a separate Starfleet Academy facility isn't such a bad idea, and fits quite well with the typical Vulcan attitude of staying apart from all those pesky emotional humans, with the graduates being directed mainly to either ground assignments or ships under Vulcan control, like the Intrepid.

Spock, however, could very well have been the first Vulcan to attend Starfleet Academy on Earth, thus opening up a much wider career field and, essentially, telling Vulcan, and his father, to bite his pointy-eared ass.

 

[Sci]

Spock, however, could very well have been the first Vulcan to attend Starfleet Academy on Earth, thus opening up a much wider career field and, essentially, telling Vulcan, and his father, to bite his pointy-eared ass.

!?!?!?

You mean Vulcans have pointy ears on their asses, too!!?

 

[Captain Robert April]

To quote a certain half-Vulcan science officer...

Spock said:

Colloquially expressed, but essentially correct.

 

[Praetor]

Howzabout this: the ships are Starfleet registered, but the operating authority is delegated to the major Federation members, specifically, those who have their own sufficiently large space program. The Enterprise operates under the United Earth Space Probe Agency, the Intrepid operated under some office of Vulcan Space Central or the Vulcan Science Academy.

And that might be a way to work in a variation of the "Spock is the first Vulcan in Starfleet" idea. The notion of Vulcan operating a separate Starfleet Academy facility isn't such a bad idea, and fits quite well with the typical Vulcan attitude of staying apart from all those pesky emotional humans, with the graduates being directed mainly to either ground assignments or ships under Vulcan control, like the Intrepid.

Spock, however, could very well have been the first Vulcan to attend Starfleet Academy on Earth...

That part works for me.

...thus opening up a much wider career field and, essentially, telling Vulcan, and his father, to bite his pointy-eared ass.

That part I'm not so sure about.

 

[Ronald Held]

Starfleet Academy should have been a school for Federation students, not just humans. Perhaps Spock was the first Vulcan student there, while in the past, other Vulcan got field commissions?

 

[Praetor]

Starfleet Academy should have been a school for Federation students, not just humans.

But who is to say that there's only one 'campus' or only one school? Who's to say there's not a Vulcan 'West Point'?

Perhaps Spock was the first Vulcan student there, while in the past, other Vulcan got field commissions?

That's an interesting idea - brevet ranks based on experience in the Vulcan service during the interim period, in turn making Spock the first actual commissioned officer?

 

[USS Triumphant]

OT (or back on topic, I suppose ) I wonder why Spock did choose to join Starfleet, a human organization, when he had chosen to live his life as a Vulcan and seemingly ignore his human half?

As a means of testing himself? After all, if he could maintain his Vulcanity there, he's solid, and if not, well, he needs to know that, too.

 

[Praetor]

Now that makes sense, Triumphant.

 

[Captain Robert April]

It's also possible that he chose Earth, and service among humans, so that he didn't have to try as hard to maintain rock-solid control all the time, because the stupid humans wouldn't really notice if he smirked once in a while (like in several first season episodes) or engaged in humorous banter from time to time (not just the fued with McCoy, but that little "Vulcan has no moon, Miss Uhura" bit and his recommendation to Lt. Bailey that he might consider having his adrenal gland removed), whereas among a Vulcan crew, he'd never catch a break.

In other words, he only had be Vulcan enough on the Enterprise, and be the picture of stoic, emotionless efficiency, whereas on the Intrepid, he could behave exactly the same, but be branded as a raving emotionalist.

Why do you think he stayed on the Enterprise all those years? It was the only place where he was actually accepted for who and what he is.

If anything, that's the core message of Star Trek. Find out where you belong in the universe and make the most of it.