Was Picard The Ranking Officer...

[Timo]

...Also, he wasn't exactly stuck in a loop. As far as we know, he simply hopped from the 2270s to the 2360s in one straight jump, and only the final fateful few seconds of that jump (between emerging and hitting the E-D) became a mini-loop of sorts. If the E-D spent 17 days in the loop, and each iteration took about three days, then there were just six loops or so - barely a minute of extra time spent for Bateson...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Anticitizen]

That is a dumb regulation, but not surprising given the series it came from, which seemed to make a point of doing things that would make my eye twitch.

Not as dumb as it might seem at first glance.

First, think of it in terms of WWI (or II) ships: if a Destroyer and a Battleship meet up, who's in command? Even if the Captain of the Battleship is junior, shouldn't it be him?

Err, only if they duke it out to see who gets to be in charge. If I'm not mistaken, the superior officer on the Destroyer could simply take command over the Battleship if he wanted, like Commodore Decker did The Doomsday Machine...

 

[Timo]

Being the senior officer aboard doesn't equate being in command; Hayes would probably have been too busy commanding the fleet to command the ship.

Which officer would face the music would probably depend on circumstances. When the Bismarck went down, it was because of decisions made by the mission commander (that is, commander of the actions of Bismarck and Prinz Eugen both, but captain of neither), Admiral Lütjens; the captain of Bismarck, Captain Lindemann, had little say in the maneuvers that led to the loss of the ship.

In contrast, if a warship sank during transit to combat zone with a flag officer aboard - say, if a carrier got sunk at the Pacific theater due to a random submarine or kamikaze attack - that would probably fall on the captain, not the flag officer. It would have been the captain's duty to zigzag, or scout for approaching threats, or whatever the reason of the loss.

Hayes probably wouldn't have had much leeway in whether to go against the Borg or not. It would have been up to the skipper to keep the ship alive so that Hayes could coordinate the battle - and if he or she failed, there might be an inquiry into whether he or she had done something wrong.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Cicero]

Some of the other captain's may have out ranked Picard, however remember in Star Trek Eleven when Kirk first takes command of the Enterprise even though there must have been dozen of officers aboard who held more than his minuscule rank. Kirk took charge, because he TOOK CHARGE, he picked up the flag - yelled follow me - and ran towards the enemy without looking behind him.

Initiative was probably a factor in Kirk's ascension, but what happened was also procedurally correct. While some other officers outranked him in grade, he outranked them positionally - which is more important - because Pike had assigned him as first officer.

 

[The Boy Who Cried Worf]

I had always assumed that Picard, as the captain of Star Fleet's flagship, was the senior captain in the fleet and no other captain outranks him.

 

[Timo]

Umm, as far as I know, the Enterprise-E was never suggested to have been the flagship of anything. Not the Flagship of the Federation like the E-D, not the ship flying the flag of any known flag officer, not the flagship of any starship formation.

Out of all the Enterprises, only the E-D was ever stated to have been a flagship of any sort - although in theory, the E-nil-refit may have carried Rear Admiral Kirk's flag in ST2:TWoK and in the opening scenes of ST3:TSfS.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Marten]

Has seniority because of served time ever occured in Star Trek? I can't remember any such instance, at least.

 

[Timo]

Junior Lieutenants Torres and Paris bickered about this in VOY "Day of Honor"... Or at least Paris claimed he outranked Torres, despite wearing the exact same pips.

Of course, Paris had in all likelihood reached that rank earlier: he had graduated from Starfleet Academy some time before joining the Maquis, while Torres only got the Lt (jg) rank from Janeway after joining the Voyager crew. Also, when Torres was given the Lt(jg) rank (due to the events of "Parallax"), Paris was given the senior Lt rank which he only lost towards the end of the first season. Janeway probably wouldn't have given Paris the senior rank in "Caretaker" unless he were at least a Lt(jg) by his earlier rank.

At the time of "Day of Honor", though, the only way Paris could claim he was outranking Torres was by time-in-rank; other episodes had made it clear that Maquis provisional rank was not automatically inferior to the corresponding proper Starfleet rank.

That's more or less the only time time-in-rank seems to have been used in an argument in Starfleet... And even there it was implicit, not explicit. The writers could have used something like that to settle the score between Janeway and Ransom in "Equinox", but they chose to write and cast Ransom as the senior of the two, and invented a separate regulation to let Janeway come out as the winner.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Cicero]

Out of all the Enterprises, only the E-D was ever stated to have been a flagship of any sort - although in theory, the E-nil-refit may have carried Rear Admiral Kirk's flag in ST2:TWoK and in the opening scenes of ST3:TSfS.

In the new film, Captain Pike calls the Enterprise "our newest flagship."

 

[Timo]

If we start counting alternate universes, then the "In a Mirror, Darkly" NX-01 has to be included as well.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Saquist]

I think the First Contact situation reveals how intelligent Star Fleet is.
First of all, Yes Star Fleet could be in direct control from Earth but as often is the case the Commander on the field can react faster and has clearer understanding (despite how quickly they were loosing ships)

Now the fact that they were losing ships so fast proves that the Sovereign class ship should have had authority. That's the first point.

The second point is that officer that had given Picard the order to stand down was dead or incapacitated. Hayes was Star Fleet Operations or Star Fleet Commander. Once he's gone the next ranking Admiral or Captain takes control.

The likely hood is that Hayes was the one who pressed this order to keep him out of the fight. I'm sure Star Fleet was more than willing to consider the order rescinded after his demise.

 

[Timo]

Hmh? I thought Hayes was merely in command of the force that had been sent to counter the Borg at Typhon. Fleets like that have often been led by three-pippers like him. With him gone, the next person in the fleet might take command - or another flag officer from the endless supply available at Earth might. In practice, it sounds unlikely that any new leaders would be sent up from the planet, of course...

I find it unlikely that Hayes would have been the only one willing Picard absent, imprisoned or dead during Borg attacks!

As for the rate they were losing ships, we have no indication they would have lost Sovereigns at a slower rate. If anything, the ships we saw looked more warlike than Picard's ride, and still fared badly.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Saquist]

Hmh? I thought Hayes was merely in command of the force that had been sent to counter the Borg at Typhon. Fleets like that have often been led by three-pippers like him. With him gone, the next person in the fleet might take command - or another flag officer from the endless supply available at Earth might. In practice, it sounds unlikely that any new leaders would be sent up from the planet, of course...

I concur.

I find it unlikely that Hayes would have been the only one willing Picard absent, imprisoned or dead during Borg attacks!

I think he would have been one of a few...a serious minority. And I think this was likely the decision of one man and if you're the flagship then likely you're getting it straight from the horses mouth. I think Hayes saw him as an unpredictable element in his fleet. That explains why there was no objection to Picard taking command.

As for the rate they were losing ships, we have no indication they would have lost Sovereigns at a slower rate. If anything, the ships we saw looked more warlike than Picard's ride, and still fared badly.

Timo Saloniemi

1- we see the same borg tractor beam tear through a ship with no hull damage of one those "warlike" ships strike the Sovereigns shield to little or no effect.

2- Defiant took the same borg tractor beam and did not subcomb as easily as those "warlike ships reveal in FC.'

3- Those "warlike" ships predate the Galaxy by registry.

 

[Matt4511]

I think there's merit to asking whether or not Picard was legally justified in assuming command of the fleet. That's not to say that he wasn't, I just think it's a fair question.

But what I find silly is the notion that proximity to Earth and by extension Starfleet Command should have negated that. Imagine if (heaven forbid) a large enemy ground force was advancing on Washington, DC. US troops were trying to hold them back and the general commanding the American force were to be killed. A colonel with tons of experience, whose right there on the scene, tries to take command, but then reconsiders, since, like, the Pentagon is only like fifteen minutes away, man. And at the very least, he can give them a call.

Proximity is pointless. Coordinating a battle must be done at the point of contact. Picard might not have been the right guy, but it certainly wasn't some admiral on Earth. Save the HQ admirals for strategic planning. The tactical control of a fleet action cannot be quarterbacked from afar (even if afar ain't all that far).

 

[G2309]

I guess they could have kept the true spirit of TNG and had a 5 minute video conference to discuss Picards plan. But that would have been dull.

 

[Anticitizen]

I think it probably boils down to the fact that it happened very quickly, and besides, nobody had any better ideas. Picard comes over the radio and announces that he's taking command and everybody should fire at one specific point on the Borg cube due to some information he has.

Let's imagine that it's anyone else in the fleet other than Picard that makes this order. You're a starship captain, engaged in a fight that's going downhill quickly - your comrade ships are dropping like flies. Captain Joe Sixpack's comm officer, from the Starship Bozo, comes over the radio and says, 'hey everybody, concentrate your fire on this one spot'. What are you going to do, argue? Maybe Joe Sixpack knows something you don't. Your current strategy isn't working.

I see it as a random courageous unit commander in a battle picking up the fallen flag of his army and rallying his fellow soldiers into action.

 

[Timo]

...The interesting twist here is that the random courageous unit commander is well known for his fraternization with the enemy of the day. Some would no doubt join him just like they would any commander. Others might firmly believe he is superbly qualified for the job for his knowing the enemy. And some would consider him a traitor and ponder concentrating their fire on him instead, or doing the exact opposite of what he says, or at the very least ignoring his ideas.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[jimbo1973]

everyone makes some really good pionts . Isn't Captain Picard one of the senior Captains in Starfleet anyway?? I always had that impression.. if you'll remeber Admiral quinn wanted to promote him to admiral in the first season.. And i eealize they had been old freinds and that could be the reason fo that also.

 

[Timo]

That's a very good point.

OTOH, many starship captains we saw in TNG were old men; Jellico for one certainly appeared as old as Picard. Possibly none of them had spent as long at the rank of Captain as Picard had - but then again, we have no explicit reason to think that Picard attained that rank at an early age. It's just something suggested in the background material, not spelled out in any episode or movie.

So Picard probably wouldn't be "uniquely senior" at any point. But he might well be among the most senior human captains, which might give him added prestige. Now, I doubt he could outdo Vulcan captains in this respect, but perhaps Vulcans don't stay at Captain rank for long - they might get bored with a single career when their lifetime easily caters for three full ones, or they might be driven by ambition to quickly advance to flag rank.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[jimbo1973]

my friend, I musst say sadly, i didnt even think of the longer lived alien races who could be captains as well.. some stun my butt lol.. see this is why i love these boards!! you can get a whole new perspective..