Was Picard The Ranking Officer...

[nx1701g]

I love how they made the Enterprise out shine the Defiant. The Defiant was beat to shit than the new Enterprise just wisks right in front of it like 'hey i'm the new bigger kid on the block now".

Considering Berman's original plan was to destroy the Defiant in the opening battle I'm not really surprised.

 

[T'Girl]

So where was Admiral Hayes?

We know he survived the destruction of his flagship .

Given that Hayes survives, that means he either beam to another ship and would have resumed command in a few minutes, or he was in a lifeboat and in no position to command the fleet.

Starfleet might have had doubts about Picard's abilities, but the other captains in the fleet apparently possessed none. Some of the other captain's may have out ranked Picard, however remember in Star Trek Eleven when Kirk first takes command of the Enterprise even though there must have been dozen of officers aboard who held more than his minuscule rank. Kirk took charge, because he TOOK CHARGE, he picked up the flag - yelled follow me - and ran towards the enemy without looking behind him. This is what Picard did, after Riker informed him that the admiral's ship had been destroyed, Picard asked for and received a status report on the Borg cube, in that time no one had stepped forward to take command of the fleet, so basically Picard did just that. He took charge.

 

[Withers]

I read on Memory Alpha that they weren't particularly pleased with the way Defiant was used. The quote was something like 'If they were just going to beat the hell out of it what was the point?' I think a little more ass-kicking on Defiant's part would've been nice. I mean... to at least see it do some damage rather than the initial scene with the bridge on fire. I also think they missed a prime opportunity to have some DS9 characters in a movie; why was Worf the only person who went to help out? I mean... when else did that ever happen?

But onto the OP...

what was the alternative really? Admirals show up on a Scooty Puff Jr. (Oberth Class) and are like "Okay, I'm in charge now, everybody listen to me?" When the guy who knows what he's doing shows up in the flagship it would seemingly be unreasonable not to listen to him.

-Withers-​

 

[Peach Wookiee]

^Scooty Puff, Jr... XDDDDDDD

 

[indolover]

A flagship in any fleet, by definition, is the most powerful vessel, or most technologically advanced ship.

The Enterprise was the only (to our knowledge) Sovereign-class vessel in the fleet, so Picard by default was the leader of the fleet. The Enterprise-D was Starfleet's flagship since it was at the time the most powerful/technologically advanced vessel.

It's how it works in the real life navies of the world. An aircraft carrier outranks a frigate or destroyer since it is a tactically more powerful vessel. So Starfleet's regulation is based on real life.

 

[Braxton]

I read on Memory Alpha that they weren't particularly pleased with the way Defiant was used. The quote was something like 'If they were just going to beat the hell out of it what was the point?' I think a little more ass-kicking on Defiant's part would've been nice. I mean... to at least see it do some damage rather than the initial scene with the bridge on fire. I also think they missed a prime opportunity to have some DS9 characters in a movie; why was Worf the only person who went to help out? I mean... when else did that ever happen?

But onto the OP...

what was the alternative really? Admirals show up on a Scooty Puff Jr. (Oberth Class) and are like "Okay, I'm in charge now, everybody listen to me?" When the guy who knows what he's doing shows up in the flagship it would seemingly be unreasonable not to listen to him.

-Withers-​

Since the Defiant was present at the beginning of the battle and was still fighting the Cube at Earth, I think that's proof enough of its abilities. How many of those other ships were part of original fleet? We don't know but they all looked pretty 'clean' to me, suggesting that they were waiting at Earth.

As for Picard taking command, for one, it's the Enterprise and is considered the flagship of the Federation, and two, no one else stepped up to the plate. There's no doubt that the other captains saw the arrival of the Enterprise as a relief since that ship and crew have done so much they thought 'we've got nothing to lose at this point, let's give his plan a shot.' and it turned out to work.

 

[Nerys Myk]

A flagship in any fleet, by definition, is the most powerful vessel, or most technologically advanced ship.

The Enterprise was the only (to our knowledge) Sovereign-class vessel in the fleet, so Picard by default was the leader of the fleet. The Enterprise-D was Starfleet's flagship since it was at the time the most powerful/technologically advanced vessel.

It's how it works in the real life navies of the world. An aircraft carrier outranks a frigate or destroyer since it is a tactically more powerful vessel. So Starfleet's regulation is based on real life.

I was under the impression it was the ship the commanding officer of the group of ships was aboard and lead from.

 

[clint g]

Didn't Janeway tell the captain of the Equinox that according to Starfleet regs, when there are multiple ships in a combat environment that overall command falls to the captain on the ship with superior tactical abilities? I could be wrong because I am certainly no expert on Voyager, but it stuck out in my mind as odd because it didn't take into account time in rank. Than again Starfleet regs don't have to mirror US regs, or any other for that matter I guess.

Another flaw with that rule would be who decides which individual has the superior tactical abilities? Sure it works when you are sitting down discussing a battle plan, but if you're actually in the fight you aren't going to be able to debate over who is the best tactician

 

[clint g]

A flagship in any fleet, by definition, is the most powerful vessel, or most technologically advanced ship.

The Enterprise was the only (to our knowledge) Sovereign-class vessel in the fleet, so Picard by default was the leader of the fleet. The Enterprise-D was Starfleet's flagship since it was at the time the most powerful/technologically advanced vessel.

It's how it works in the real life navies of the world. An aircraft carrier outranks a frigate or destroyer since it is a tactically more powerful vessel. So Starfleet's regulation is based on real life.

I was under the impression it was the ship the commanding officer of the group of ships was aboard and lead from.

Indeed. It has nothing to do with which ship is the most advanced (at least militarily). A flagship gets the name because often times the lead officer in the group is a flag officer (an admiral) and that officer operates from the ship. Of course, being the head honcho, the commander of the group will often times lead from the best ship, but they don't have to do so.

As to why Picard took charge, I was under the impression that the flagship in charge of the defense fleet was taken out. Between that and the fact that they were getting the crap kicked out of them Picard took the initiative (as any good officer with his level of experience would) and assumed command

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

As to why Picard took charge, I was under the impression that the flagship in charge of the defense fleet was taken out.

Yep. Riker says "Captain, the Admiral's flagship has been destroyed."

 

[nx1701g]

As to why Picard took charge, I was under the impression that the flagship in charge of the defense fleet was taken out.

Yep. Riker says "Captain, the Admiral's flagship has been destroyed."

And since Hayes was in an escape pod (most likely) it would be considered that he was incapacitated.

 

[Mr Pointy Ears]

I belive that there was a admiral hayes,the same admiral who informed picard about the botg attack was in charge of the battlegroup defending earth before his ship was destroyede by the cube that when picard took command of the fleet.

 

[Withers]

Since the Defiant was present at the beginning of the battle and was still fighting the Cube at Earth, I think that's proof enough of its abilities. How many of those other ships were part of original fleet? We don't know but they all looked pretty 'clean' to me, suggesting that they were waiting at Earth.

That's all well and good but I would still like to have seen Defiant kicking a little more ass than we were show. I'm sure it did just fine (considering how much damage it took) but I would like to have seen that happen rather than just assume it. I'm a big ole' fan of USS Defiant so just chalk it up to personal... you know, whatever.

-Withers-​

 

[Timo]

Starfleet might have had doubts about Picard's abilities, but the other captains in the fleet apparently possessed none.

Or then the fleet was split on the issue. After all, not all of the ships fighting the Cube join in when Picard designates the right place (and time!) to hit the Borg...

A flagship in any fleet, by definition, is the most powerful vessel, or most technologically advanced ship.

This is virtually never true.

A flagship is a ship that flies the rank of the Admiral in command of the formation. In the WWI era, some Admirals commanded from aboard mighty battleships, but others vastly preferred being aboard a faster and more agile vessel, such as a cruiser. In the WWII era, it was found out that commanding the demanding amphibious operations of the Pacific war theater was nearly impossible if the Admiral (and the Marine commanders) sat aboard a big battleship - the firing of those guns tended to disrupt communications. So dedicated command ships were built for use as flagships, typically converted from transports or amphibious attack ships.

Today, the USN uses old amphibious attack ships as dedicated flagships - although it's also typical for the Admiral to use a big aircraft carrier as his command ship, if one is available. It would be difficult to define the aircraft carriers as the "most powerful" or "most advanced" ships in a typical naval formation, as the various AEGIS destroyers tend to be newer, and to possess more powerful weapons (both defensive and offensive)...

There's no doubt that the other captains saw the arrival of the Enterprise as a relief since that ship and crew have done so much

As far as we know, the ship had done nothing worth mentioning before she joined that battle. And since Starfleet considered it perfectly all right not to include the E-E in the defensive fleet, one might deduce that Starfleet considered the E-E a technological failure to some degree.

Whether the crew's previous heroics featured in the decisions of those other captains, hard to tell. The fact that Picard was the Federation's only true Borg expert should have accounted to something, though. Half the fleet would no doubt think Picard was the best and perhaps the only way to victory - while the other half probably prepared to blow this traitor out of the sky at the very first sign of renewed treason.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[SpyOne]

I would suggest that, that close to Earth, surely there were officers at Starfleet Command that were senior. Also, Captain Bateson was there, and we know he was senior. So I guess this is another example of an officer being given a pass on doing something against the rules because the results were positive?

Bateson is only senior according to dates: it is unlikely he has experienced more elapsed time in the Big Chair.
Picard is in command of the Federation Flagship, and has been a Captain for something like 45 years. That makes him pretty senior. In fact, almost everyone with as much seniority is an Admiral.

Starfleet Command outranks him, but he's the one in the field. Yes, they are very close to Earth, but ... If enemy troops were to invade Washington DC, the US troops defending it would still be getting their orders from their Lieutenants. "But isn't the pentagon right over there? And don't we all actually answer to the President?"
"Yes, but none of the Generals over there have as good a view of that unit as I do."

There was an Admiral in command of that fleet, IIRC, and his ship got destroyed. Picard stepped into the gap and started giving orders, and people started following them. If you'll recall, that is exactly how Picard wound up in command of a starship in the first place.

 

[SpyOne]

That is a dumb regulation, but not surprising given the series it came from, which seemed to make a point of doing things that would make my eye twitch.

Not as dumb as it might seem at first glance.

First, think of it in terms of WWI (or II) ships: if a Destroyer and a Battleship meet up, who's in command? Even if the Captain of the Battleship is junior, shouldn't it be him?

Then, add in that Starfleet does a lot of things that aren't combat related. It is quite possible for a science officer with little tactical experience to rise to command a science ship, where tactical experience is unlikely to be important. But a ship with significant combat capabilities would, logically, be given a Captain with experience in that area.
So Starfleet apparently defaults to "Since they gave you a ship with Big Guns, and didn't give one to me, they seem to think you are more qualified to use them than me." Even if you only got that ship a year ago, and I've had this one for decades.

 

[SpyOne]

So where was Admiral Hayes?

We know he survived the destruction of his flagship (side note: since a court martial convenes whenever a ship is lost, I wonder if Hayes had to go through that? ), since he later shows up in an episode of Voyager. So he must have been on one of those other ships in the fleet, since I doubt there was time to get his lifeboat back to Earth. And thus, Hayes should have still been in command - of whatever ship he happened to be on.

Lifeboat. Hayes was in an Escape Pod, which has neither the sensors nor the communications equipment to allow him to manage a battle.
Why not beam to another ship? Both ships would have to drop shields. So, when you are being pounded so hard your ship is about to explode, are you going to lower your shields?
(Yes, I know they lowered their shields to get Worf, but .... that was dumb.)

Oh, and there would be a court-martial over the loss of that ship, but it would be her Captain and not the Admiral who it would be about.

 

[SpyOne]

A flagship in any fleet, by definition, is the most powerful vessel, or most technologically advanced ship.

Um, no.

A flagship is the lead ship in a fleet of vessels, a designation given on account of being either the largest, fastest, newest, most heavily armed or, for publicity purposes, the best known. In military terms, it is a ship used by the commanding officer of a group of naval ships. The term originates from the custom of the commanding officer (usually, but not always, a flag officer) to fly a distinguishing flag.

Used in this way, "flagship" is fundamentally a temporary designation; the flagship is wherever the admiral's flag is being flown. However, admirals have always needed additional facilities; a meeting room large enough to hold all the captains of the fleet, and a place for the admiral's staff to make plans and draw up orders.

In the age of sailing ships, the flagship was typically a first-rate; the aft of one of the three decks would become the admiral's quarters and staff offices. This can be seen today on HMS Victory, the flagship of Admiral Nelson at the Battle of Trafalgar, now at Portsmouth, England. HMS Victory still serves the Royal Navy today as the ceremonial flagship of the Commander-in-Chief Naval Home Command[1] making her the oldest commissioned warship in service.

In the 20th century, ships became large enough that most types could accommodate commander and staff, and during World War II admirals would often prefer a faster ship over the largest one. Some larger ships may have a separate flag bridge for use by the admiral and his staff while the captain commanded from the main navigation bridge. Because its primary function is to coordinate a fleet, flagships are not necessarily more heavily armed or fortified than other ships. Increasing communications and computing requirements have resulted in the design of specialized command and control ships to serve as flagship.

The Flagship of the US Navy's Atlantic Fleet (the Second Fleet, technically) is USS Wasp, and amphibious landing ship.
The Flagship of the Sixth Fleet (Mediterranean and Black Sea) is USS Mount Whitney, a Blue Ridge Class command ship. She mounts barely any guns (4x.50cal, 2x25mm, 2 Phalanx systems and some chaff rockets) and only has enough helipad for one helicopter, but mounts an awesome suite of communications gear and computers.

 

[Timo]

Oh, and there would be a court-martial over the loss of that ship, but it would be her Captain and not the Admiral who it would be about.

Not necessarily. Picard said that a court martial was standard procedure in a situation such as the loss of the Stargazer - but he might have been saying that the circumstances of the loss of the Stargazer were unclear or dubious and thus warranted such an extreme measure. A better-documented loss where there was no controversy might only warrant a board of inquiry.

After all, the loss of Picard's old ship was controversial. It was later revealed that the ship had been abandoned while still quite intact. Why didn't Picard either destroy the ship, or then ask Starfleet to recover her? Picard's crew drifted to safety in shuttlecraft - surely a starship could then have quickly made the reverse journey and assessed the status of the abandoned Stargazer, either scuttling her or then towing her home. Picard may have faced charges of abandoning his post, and may have had to talk himself out of that - perhaps even bending the facts a little. Picard's not just the type to take charge in a crisis, he's the type to come out clean from the dirtiest affairs.

A recent novel suggests that Picard did attempt to destroy the crippled ship when evacuating, but the unorthodox scuttling maneuver didn't work out, and Picard didn't realize it had failed since the evacuation had already taken him too far away. There are examples of that happening in the real world: pilots ejecting from their damaged jets after placing them in deep dive, only to find out later that the ejection had leveled out the dive and the plane only crashed hundreds of miles away, perhaps in an inhabited area. And in "The Battle", Picard did express amazement that the ship had survived, even if he never told the audience that he would have attempted to give her a different fate originally.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[USS KG5]

This thread has been done guys - assuming Picard knew very well that Hayes was the only Admiral and he was out of the fight, as one of the fleet's most experienced Captains he would likely have had seniority even by modern standards.

As for Bateson, what the frak? How the hell could he accumulate seniority stuck in a time loop? That would make no sense at all.