Was NCC-1701 active for 40 years?

[Dukhat]

Consider that McCoy just finished making the exact OPPOSITE point at the beginning of Wrath of Khan where he urged Kirk "Get back your command! Get it back before you become part of this collection! Before you really grow old!"

But McCoy didn't know of Starfleet's plans to mothball the Enterprise.

]I don't think he's trying to spare his feelings either, but I'm pretty sure he's trying to convince Kirk to get the fuck out of that chair and go fly a desk like everyone else wants him to do. I suspect this has a lot less to do with his age or even the age of the Enterprise than it does with Starfleet not really trusting Kirk and wanting to keep him out of trouble.

Let's face it: the Khan fiasco is the snowballing result of a bad decision Kirk made (and evidently didn't properly report to Starfleet, and was made worse by a combination of Kirk's cowboy attitude (not raising shields when he was supposed to) and his personal attachment to Doctor Marcus. Probably more damming is the destruction of Reliant and the detonation of the Genesis Device; the first is just a regrettable loss of material that could be justified by Khan's piracy, but the latter is an unfolding fiasco of which Kirk is the cosmic center.

Basically, they're pulling the "she's too old, Jim" card because it's a plausible way of keeping him the hell away from Genesis before he can make things even worse (and is also why Captain J.T. "By the Book" Esteban got to take David and Saavik on the Genesis Expedition).

More to the point, when Kirk later asks for the Enterprise back, Morrow jumps from one excuse after another (the Enterprise wouldn't stand the pounding! The Council won't like it!) and finally settles on "Think of your career."

That's when Kirk finally gets that Starfleet (or the Council, probably) doesn't want HIM SPECIFICALLY going back to Genesis and Morrow is trying really hard to come up with an excuse. Incidentally, Kirk's return to Genesis wound up creating exactly the kind of interstellar incident everyone was hoping to avoid, although in all fairness it wasn't actually his fault, and in even greater fairness putting him back in charge of a starship probably makes him a lot easier to control since they can now assign him to "Saturn ring patrol" or something until he retires.

Ok, if that's your interpretation of Morrow's actions, fine. But that's a little too overly-complicated for me based on what I saw. Morrow didn't seem to give a shit about Kirk until Kirk started talking about going to Genesis. Morrow stated that it's illegal for anyone to go there, which was true. He then gave Kirk some good advice about not risking his career by doing something stupid while at the same time showing his complete ignorance and total lack of understanding towards one of the founding races of the Federation and their death rites.

I didn't see anything personal in Morrow's remarks, nor did I get the impression that Starfleet was keeping some sort of eye on Kirk. All I saw was some idiot admiral.

 

[Robert Comsol]

Oops...when I saw the thread title I thought this was a reference to The Making of Star Trek according to which the members of the Enterprise Starship Class had already been 40 years in service by the time of TOS!

What page number in "The Making of Star Trek" is the 40-year-old remark printed on? Id like to review it.

Don't have the page number with me, but it's in the chapter "Mission and Men". It's the sentence where it says "The Enterprise-Class Starships have been in service for fourty years".

But I think we are looking at a premise that was changed by the time of "Is There In Truth No Beauty?":

KIRK: We mustn't keep the ambassador waiting. If you'll go with Mister Scott, I'm sure the two of you will have a great deal in common.
SCOTT: Aye, indeed. It's a rare privilege meeting one of the designers of the Enterprise.

Lawrence Marvick is in his thirties by the time of that episode. Assuming events in "The Cage" took place at least 15 years earlier would make Marvick some kind of Wunderkind participating in this Enterprise's design.

Somehow I have less difficulties believing that between Stardate 1313.8 ("Where No Man Has Gone Before") and Stardate 1329.1 ("Mudd's Women") the Pike-Enterprise was scraped (Galactic Barrier damage) and replaced with a new one, where Marvick participated in its design (increasing internal volume to accomodate 430 than just 203 crew members? ).

Bob

 

[Timo]

It should be noted that a piece of engineering can be designed and redesigned, in part or even in whole, several times after it has been built. Both young Larry Marvick and the equally young Leah Brahms were supposedly involved in designing the engines of the respective Enterprises, and engine upgrades are among the more probable changes to an already built vessel!

(Indeed, in the Brahms case, we have MSD evidence that the E-D and the Yamato had different numbers of warp coils in their nacelles,possibly indicating upgrades or changes in the design.)

This is not to say that the premise couldn't have been changed back and forth in the world outside the Star Trek reality. Although I suspect any "premise" simply was ignored in the writing of this episode, and perhaps others as well.

The "redesign" in ST:TMP would certainly be so massive as to warrant Morrow's statement; perhaps we should also consider the possibility that the 2245 "launch" of the ship was but another redesign of a much older ship...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Consider that McCoy just finished making the exact OPPOSITE point at the beginning of Wrath of Khan where he urged Kirk "Get back your command! Get it back before you become part of this collection! Before you really grow old!"

But McCoy didn't know of Starfleet's plans to mothball the Enterprise.

The plan wasn't to mothball Enterprise. The plan was to mothball KIRK. At this point in his career, Starfleet thinks of him as kind of a loose cannon who creates more problems than he solves; his experience and skill as a Starship captain makes him an excellent academy instructor, but his adventures in space exploration are just a lot more interesting than Starfleet would prefer.

Morrow didn't seem to give a shit about Kirk until Kirk started talking about going to Genesis. Morrow stated that it's illegal for anyone to go there, which was true. He then gave Kirk some good advice about not risking his career by doing something stupid while at the same time showing his complete ignorance and total lack of understanding towards one of the founding races of the Federation and their death rites.

And yet, one has to wonder why Morrow personally went to the Enterprise to debrief Kirk and crew and offer them "extended shore leave." This before the crew even has a chance to get off the ship and stretch their legs. He is, as diplomatically as possible, telling them all to stand down and stay out of trouble.

It's kind of like a cop coming back from a really dubious assignment and having the chief tell him "Hey man, great job out there, we're all proud of you... um... so how about you go and take a nice long vacation for, like, six months? Leave your badge and gun here, just forget about work for a while, okay? Oh, that case you were working? Yeah, the Mayor's decided he wants his own people on it. So go home, cool your jets, don't do anything stupid."

I didn't see anything personal in Morrow's remarks, nor did I get the impression that Starfleet was keeping some sort of eye on Kirk.

I figured they were keeping an eye on EVERYONE. Or did you think it was a coincidence that a Federation Security Agent just happened to be at the same bar as McCoy?

 

[Dukhat]

The plan wasn't to mothball Enterprise. The plan was to mothball KIRK. At this point in his career, Starfleet thinks of him as kind of a loose cannon who creates more problems than he solves; his experience and skill as a Starship captain makes him an excellent academy instructor, but his adventures in space exploration are just a lot more interesting than Starfleet would prefer.

Sorry, not seeing THAT at all. Kirk doesn't become a "loose canon" until after he steals the Enterprise.

And yet, one has to wonder why Morrow personally went to the Enterprise to debrief Kirk and crew and offer them "extended shore leave." This before the crew even has a chance to get off the ship and stretch their legs. He is, as diplomatically as possible, telling them all to stand down and stay out of trouble.

It's kind of like a cop coming back from a really dubious assignment and having the chief tell him "Hey man, great job out there, we're all proud of you... um... so how about you go and take a nice long vacation for, like, six months? Leave your badge and gun here, just forget about work for a while, okay? Oh, that case you were working? Yeah, the Mayor's decided he wants his own people on it. So go home, cool your jets, don't do anything stupid."

Again, you're welcome to believe that interpretation of the scenes, but I don't see anything even close to concrete proof of this.

Or did you think it was a coincidence that a Federation Security Agent just happened to be at the same bar as McCoy?

He was at the same bar because it served to plot of the film, not because there was any kind of conspiracy against Kirk and his crew.

 

[trevanian]

The plan wasn't to mothball Enterprise. The plan was to mothball KIRK. At this point in his career, Starfleet thinks of him as kind of a loose cannon who creates more problems than he solves; his experience and skill as a Starship captain makes him an excellent academy instructor, but his adventures in space exploration are just a lot more interesting than Starfleet would prefer.

Sorry, not seeing THAT at all. Kirk doesn't become a "loose canon" until after he steals the Enterprise.

Or did you think it was a coincidence that a Federation Security Agent just happened to be at the same bar as McCoy?

He was at the same bar because it served to plot of the film, not because there was any kind of conspiracy against Kirk and his crew.

He just happened to be there? NO. Again, NO. The way he addressed it fits perfectly with the low-profile approach, and also fits with the 20thcenturization present especially in SFS and TUC, where Starfleet seems to provoke paranoia like some agency out of THE X-FILES.

And Kirk is always a loose cannon; even with a stay-out-of-court-martial free card from T'Pau, I'm sure diverting to Vulcan to save Spock ruffled a lot of administrative feathers. Further down the line, the Genesis thing was just a really big genie to let loose, and he and his crew would be the fall guys. In his revised TWOST, Gerrold mentions that it seems like Starfleet doesn't want this crew working together again ever.

 

[Dukhat]

He just happened to be there? NO. Again, NO. The way he addressed it fits perfectly with the low-profile approach, and also fits with the 20thcenturization present especially in SFS and TUC, where Starfleet seems to provoke paranoia like some agency out of THE X-FILES.

And Kirk is always a loose cannon; even with a stay-out-of-court-martial free card from T'Pau, I'm sure diverting to Vulcan to save Spock ruffled a lot of administrative feathers. Further down the line, the Genesis thing was just a really big genie to let loose, and he and his crew would be the fall guys. In his revised TWOST, Gerrold mentions that it seems like Starfleet doesn't want this crew working together again ever.

You must have watched a different movie than I did, because I got none of that. Starfleet as an evil empire out to get Kirk and crew? Huh?

 

[Robert Comsol]

He just happened to be there? NO. Again, NO. The way he addressed it fits perfectly with the low-profile approach, and also fits with the 20thcenturization present especially in SFS and TUC, where Starfleet seems to provoke paranoia like some agency out of THE X-FILES.

What we can tell from the actual scene is that the Federation security undercover guy obviously didn't follow McCoy, but was already there (unless one wants to seriously claim that he saw where McCoy was heading, ran past him and grabbed a glass from the bar ).

I got the impression that somehow this bar was known to Federation security to be a place for illegal activities. So instead it wasn't closed (where will it pop up next?) but tolerated, yet with some undercover agents in place.

The issue in the film was the controversy of the Genesis Project and apparently the undercover agent was put in place to listen what information was flowing around. I have little doubt that he had been briefed who was involved with the Genesis Incident, so he probably identified McCoy when he entered the bar.

Bob

 

[trevanian]

He just happened to be there? NO. Again, NO. The way he addressed it fits perfectly with the low-profile approach, and also fits with the 20thcenturization present especially in SFS and TUC, where Starfleet seems to provoke paranoia like some agency out of THE X-FILES.

And Kirk is always a loose cannon; even with a stay-out-of-court-martial free card from T'Pau, I'm sure diverting to Vulcan to save Spock ruffled a lot of administrative feathers. Further down the line, the Genesis thing was just a really big genie to let loose, and he and his crew would be the fall guys. In his revised TWOST, Gerrold mentions that it seems like Starfleet doesn't want this crew working together again ever.

You must have watched a different movie than I did, because I got none of that. Starfleet as an evil empire out to get Kirk and crew? Huh?

Kind of makes me wonder what movie you saw, since Starfleet in the movies is so seriously contemporary in its thinking (perhaps the one aspect of Sowards TWOK script that Bennett carried over, the unstated notion that Starfleet has abandoned the 'to boldy go' idea in favor of just protecting its existing territories, which invalidates much of Kirk's LIFE), the paranoia angle is just seeping out all over. I think Kirk even has a glimmer of what is coming. When he muses about the 'hero's welcome,' he may already be expecting some bad shit coming down.

The main thing I got from opening day on SFS (besides thinking it was a real disappointment) was that Starfleet and the Federation didn't DESERVE benefitting from having this crew anymore, and that Kirk & co would have been much better off going private (which coincidentally fits into my notino for followups that wouldn't be burdened with all the rigamarole of San Francisco and spacedock and could have just told trek stories without a lot of distraction.)

 

[Crazy Eddie]

The plan wasn't to mothball Enterprise. The plan was to mothball KIRK. At this point in his career, Starfleet thinks of him as kind of a loose cannon who creates more problems than he solves; his experience and skill as a Starship captain makes him an excellent academy instructor, but his adventures in space exploration are just a lot more interesting than Starfleet would prefer.

Sorry, not seeing THAT at all. Kirk doesn't become a "loose canon" until after he steals the Enterprise.

The entire populations of Sigma Iota II, Eminar VII, the former disciples of Val and the High Advisor of Ardana might take issue with that statement. Aside from occasionally violating the prime directive, Kirk's missions have an alarming tendency to uproot the political establishment of whatever planet he visits. In another universe, a less established James T. Kirk got demoted and nearly fired for that sort of thing; in the Prime Universe, they stuck him behind a desk where they assumed they'd be able to keep him out of trouble.

And yet...

 

[Crazy Eddie]

I think Kirk even has a glimmer of what is coming. When he muses about the 'hero's welcome,' he may already be expecting some bad shit coming down.

Just had a lightbulb moment from reading the Search For Spock novelization a few years ago. When the Ensign asks Kirk if they're planning a reception, the narration mentions that this is a really inappropriate thing for him to ask but he's simply too young to know better. I never really understood why, as it's a legitimate question as far as I can tell.

But the subtext is that everything that happened with Reliant and Genesis is actually a complete fiasco. Kirk is described as giving the kid a pass as a touch of gernosity, but then adds with bitterness, "God knows there should be."

IOW, he's expecting to put into spacedock and be immediately courtmartialed faster than you can say "Hey, don't court martial me, dude."

The main thing I got from opening day on SFS (besides thinking it was a real disappointment) was that Starfleet and the Federation didn't DESERVE benefitting from having this crew anymore, and that Kirk & co would have been much better off going private (which coincidentally fits into my notino for followups that wouldn't be burdened with all the rigamarole of San Francisco and spacedock and could have just told trek stories without a lot of distraction.)

Here's a thought: Star Trek strives to be contemporary and keeping up with current events. With the recent influx of private spaceflight programs and the relative decline of NASA, that might actually be a viable storyline for Star Trek 3. If, say, the fallout from the Vengeance incident leads to Starfleet being either disbanded or else severely curtailed and Kirk, refusing the order to return to Earth, goes off on his own, hoping to cash in one big discovery that might restore Starfleet's credibility.

 

[Robert Comsol]

The entire populations of Sigma Iota II, Eminar VII, the former disciples of Val and the High Advisor of Ardana might take issue with that statement. Aside from occasionally violating the prime directive...

This is one of the reasons why I started this TOS thread.

Regarding Kirk "violating" the Prime Directive, I'll say appearances can be deceiving.

Bob

 

[Dukhat]

What we can tell from the actual scene is that the Federation security undercover guy obviously didn't follow McCoy, but was already there (unless one wants to seriously claim that he saw where McCoy was heading, ran past him and grabbed a glass from the bar ).

I got the impression that somehow this bar was known to Federation security to be a place for illegal activities. So instead it wasn't closed (where will it pop up next?) but tolerated, yet with some undercover agents in place.

The issue in the film was the controversy of the Genesis Project and apparently the undercover agent was put in place to listen what information was flowing around. I have little doubt that he had been briefed who was involved with the Genesis Incident, so he probably identified McCoy when he entered the bar.

Exactly. He wasn't there to keep an eye on McCoy, he was there to make sure anyone who talked about going to Genesis was prohibited from doing so. There was no personal animosity toward the doctor. As a matter of fact, the guard treats McCoy quite nicely (for a security guard) until the doctor starts acting weird.

Kind of makes me wonder what movie you saw...

I saw the same movie as you, only my interpretation of Starfleet is nothing like yours.

The entire populations of Sigma Iota II, Eminar VII, the former disciples of Val and the High Advisor of Ardana might take issue with that statement. Aside from occasionally violating the prime directive, Kirk's missions have an alarming tendency to uproot the political establishment of whatever planet he visits.

Oh please. You're talking as if Kirk was solely guilty of stuff like this throughout TOS. How about Ronald Tracy? Merrick? John Gill?

In another universe, a less established James T. Kirk got demoted and nearly fired for that sort of thing; in the Prime Universe, they stuck him behind a desk where they assumed they'd be able to keep him out of trouble.

1. The Abramsverse has nothing to do with this discussion. 2. That's just your assumption that Starfleet promoted him to Admiral just to "stick him behind a desk where they assumed they'd be able to keep him out of trouble." There's no evidence for that accusation at all.

And yet...

Exactly. And yet...Starfleet never demoted Kirk, took away his ship, scattered his crew. A a matter of fact, they let him take the Enterprise back from Decker. If they really were out to get him, they could have court-martialed him and threw him in the stockade for the rest of his life.

 

[Leto_II]

To be sure, it's not the same thing that we saw in Star Trek VI -- in that film, the Enterprise-A used sensor devices to track the gaseous emissions of Chang's Bird-of-Prey in order to gain a targeting lock (the ship was utterly untraceable up to that point).

In Generations, the Enterprise-D triggers a cloaking-activation via transmitted signal-pulse in order to force the Duras sisters' ship to drop its shields long enough to score some damage; the ship was already decloaked and well-visible to the Enterprise.

I think that's not the point - It was the same footage. The same piece of film, reused. i.e. they were too cheap to film a new special effect and re-used the footage from the film just previous, as if no one would notice. And not just an establishing shot like the ship leaving port, which are often stock shots, but the climax of the film's major battle scene, which should be individual and memorable! It takes you right out of the film with a big ! Even more than the rest of the film, it screamed "We don't really care if we make a good product, 'cause we know you guys will give us money as long as it says Star Trek on the label."

Except it wasn't the exact footage-reuse I was talking about, there. The original poster was discussing storyline differences, not post-production.

No one is disputing the footage-recycling issue.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

And yet...

Exactly. And yet...Starfleet never demoted Kirk, took away his ship, scattered his crew.

Oh, but they did. Throughout the original movies, the only time Kirk is GIVEN command of the Enterprise is the end of The Voyage Home. Every other time he takes the bridge, he does so either in the face of a massive emergency (acting on his own authority) or, in TUC, because the Chancellor of the High Council asked for him by name. Strictly speaking, the only time Kirk is SUPPOSED to be in command of the Enterprise is in STV, when the ship is falling apart and half its systems aren't working.

And yes, they DID scatter his crew. In Wrath of Khan most of his original bridge officers are teaching at the academy, Chekov is first officer on Reliant and Sulu is on temporary loan from another assignment (probably Excelsior) for three weeks. NONE of them are supposed to be on the Enterprise in Search for Spock, and given their histories Starfleet is probably very anxious to find other work for them the moment they get off the ship (Scotty got reassigned and promoted before he even left the ship).

A a matter of fact, they let him take the Enterprise back from Decker.

"Let" him? Both the novelization and the movie itself both strongly imply that Kirk had the admiralty by the balls. As Bones put it, he rammed it down their throats.

Obviously, Starfleet wants Kirk to stay behind his desk. The question is, WHY? At least after Genesis, one probable answer is that they felt he had caused enough trouble and they took steps to sandbag him to the full extent it was politically feasible to do so.

If they really were out to get him, they could have court-martialed him and threw him in the stockade for the rest of his life.

And if he was anyone else but James T. Kirk, them Hero of the V'ger Incident, slayer of Space Amoebas, Destroyer of Doomsday Machines, Avenger of Memory Alpha and Redeemer of Organia, that's exactly what they would have done.

But Kirk has done too much and is respected by too many for them to not invite controversy by doing so. It's a relatively common problem, usually solved by bureaucratic back doors like the one Morrow uses to (try to) keep Kirk from taking the Enterprise back out again.

Court Martials are for rank-and-file loosers with no credibility. When an Admiral or a General fucks up, it's called "forced retirement."

 

[Dukhat]

Throughout the original movies, the only time Kirk is GIVEN command of the Enterprise is the end of The Voyage Home. Every other time he takes the bridge, he does so either in the face of a massive emergency (acting on his own authority) or, in TUC, because the Chancellor of the High Council asked for him by name. Strictly speaking, the only time Kirk is SUPPOSED to be in command of the Enterprise is in STV, when the ship is falling apart and half its systems aren't working.

Let's analyze this, shall we? In TMP, Kirk is given back command of the Enterprise. Even though McCoy stated that Kirk "rammed it down their throats," Kirk also implied to Scotty that it wasn't an easy thing to persuade Nogura. But persuade him he did, and at the end of the film it's implied that Kirk is now permanently in command (and the ST Encyclopedia also conjectures that he proceeds on another 5 year mission as captain.

In TWOK, Spock is in command but allows Kirk to take the center seat during the mission. When Kirk returns the Enterprise in TSFS, Starfleet doesn't berate him for being in command, they just say that the Enterprise is to be decommissioned. Chekov asks if they'll get another ship, implying that he thinks the crew will remain together, something he wouldn't think if Starfleet was out to get them or separate them.

In TVH, the crew is seemingly reunited once again at the end, and in TFF and TUC, they are all serving together still (except for Sulu, who apparently Starfleet was so pissed at that they gave him command of the Excelsior just to get him away from Kirk, by your logic).

And yes, they DID scatter his crew. In Wrath of Khan most of his original bridge officers are teaching at the academy, Chekov is first officer on Reliant and Sulu is on temporary loan from another assignment (probably Excelsior) for three weeks. NONE of them are supposed to be on the Enterprise in Search for Spock, and given their histories Starfleet is probably very anxious to find other work for them the moment they get off the ship (Scotty got reassigned and promoted before he even left the ship).

And please show me the evidence that these people got their promotions and transfers not because they deserved them, but because Starfleet had some ulterior motive to separate them. If they did, it sure didn't work out for them, did it?

Obviously, Starfleet wants Kirk to stay behind his desk. The question is, WHY? At least after Genesis, one probable answer is that they felt he had caused enough trouble and they took steps to sandbag him to the full extent it was politically feasible to do so.

Complete supposition.

And if he was anyone else but James T. Kirk, them Hero of the V'ger Incident, slayer of Space Amoebas, Destroyer of Doomsday Machines, Avenger of Memory Alpha and Redeemer of Organia, that's exactly what they would have done.

But Kirk has done too much and is respected by too many for them to not invite controversy by doing so. It's a relatively common problem, usually solved by bureaucratic back doors like the one Morrow uses to (try to) keep Kirk from taking the Enterprise back out again.

Court Martials are for rank-and-file loosers with no credibility. When an Admiral or a General fucks up, it's called "forced retirement."

All of the examples you provide are reasons why Starfleet would want an experienced captain and crew out there, not reasons why they would want to blackball them.

 

[Robert Comsol]

In TMP, Kirk is given back command of the Enterprise. Even though McCoy stated that Kirk "rammed it down their throats," Kirk also implied to Scotty that it wasn't an easy thing to persuade Nogura. But persuade him he did, and at the end of the film it's implied that Kirk is now permanently in command (and the ST Encyclopedia also conjectures that he proceeds on another 5 year mission as captain).

Emphasis on "conjecture" I'd say. From TMP:

KIRK: I'm replacing you as Captain of the Enterprise. You'll stay on as Executive Officer. Temporary grade reduction to Commander.

This line clearly indicates that Decker was only reduced to Commander for the duration of the mission (and would have gotten his rank of "Captain" back at its end).

Of course, at the end of this mission he was no longer around so Kirk had the liberty to take the Enterprise around a couple of interstellar blocks.

I don't know how long Admiral Kirk had the Enterprise at his disposal, but I'm confident a new captain took command eventually and Kirk returned to his duties as admiral.

Bob

 

[yenny]

If they wanted to? They could have a new Captain and crew running the Enterprise for two five year mission, leaving three years for the Spock.

 

[Wingsley]

We've seen Starfleet flag officers command starships and starship task forces before. (Robert Wesley and Matt Decker come to mind) Why couldn't the Enterprise have been Kirk's command ship for deep space assignments? If the Enterprise were the flagship of, say, a task force or an explorer's wing, Kirk could command a whole group of ships from the Enterprise. This could also explain how Spock got promoted to captain.

 

[Dukhat]

I don't know how long Admiral Kirk had the Enterprise at his disposal, but I'm confident a new captain took command eventually and Kirk returned to his duties as admiral.

They could have a new Captain and crew running the Enterprise for two five year mission, leaving three years for the Spock.

Except for that pesky line in Generations where the reporter states that the new Ent-B is the first Enterprise in 30 years without Kirk as its captain. (Granted this doesn't take into account Spock's captaincy during the training cruise in TWOK, but it's not like Kirk or anyone else corrected the reporter either, or said something like, "don't you remember that other guy, Captain Joe Smith or whoever, who took command after the V'Ger incident for five years???")