Spoilers Was Luke...

Discussion in 'Star Wars' started by YellowSubmarine, Dec 31, 2017.

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Was Luke on the island?

  1. Luke was there, you literalist dolt

    37 vote(s)
    63.8%
  2. Luke was not there

    3 vote(s)
    5.2%
  3. Mixed about it - whatever happened to him at the end had already started

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  4. Quite the opposite - Luke closed himself off from the force to delay his departure

    1 vote(s)
    1.7%
  5. It's a false distinction

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  6. I like Porgs

    17 vote(s)
    29.3%
  1. bigglesworth

    bigglesworth Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Sorry... I may have misspoke... err... typed... You're right in that Luke did not attempt to kill his nephew, in that he never engaged in the act of killing Ben... it's of course small comfort to Ben who woke to see his uncle standing above him visible by only the green glow of the lightsaber that Ben thought was about to end his life.

    On a related note, I wonder what exactly Luke had told Han and Leia about that night? In the TFA, both Han and Leia knew that Ben had turned, however neither of them seemed to hold Luke responsible (Han stated that Ben had too much Vader in him and Leia said it was Snoke). That means that either both are of an extremely forgiving nature or Luke never told Han and Leia the whole story.
     
  2. Kirk the Jerk

    Kirk the Jerk Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Must’ve been watching a different film then.
     
  3. JirinPanthosa

    JirinPanthosa Vice Admiral Admiral

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    He was there. He vanished as a throwback to Obiwan completely vanishing. Remember his clothes didn't vanish, they blew away. Luke went to spirit mode. "If you strike me down in anger, I will always be with you."

    Luke drew his lightsaber to kill Ben, then he had second thoughts, but before he could put it away, Ben woke up and saw him. It was made clear that he had decided not to go through with the murder when he was caught.
     
  4. Kirk the Jerk

    Kirk the Jerk Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    From what I saw, Luke had his lightsaber drawn and ready to strike his nephew down. Upon sensing his uncle, Ben awoke to find him stood above him and the green hue of his uncle’s saber filled his room. Ben reacted with a force push, hurtling Luke through the wall of his hut.

    If that isn’t attempting to murder someone I don’t know what is. Granted, thinking about murdering someone isn’t a crime, the fact is the only thing that stopped him was Ben force pushing him away. It became more than a thought the moment him armed his lightsaber.
     
  5. Hela

    Hela Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Merely holding a knife isn’t a crime either.

    Although it is a crime to grab that person (whilst they’re paying no attention to you and staring down at their own hands, no less) and using their heads to batter down a wall.

    Sure, Ben has a good argument for mitigating circumstances due to self defence or provocation. Most reasonable people would feel threatened or provoked by waking up to somone in the room holding a knife. But provocation isn’t a complete defence, and self defence became iffy when the middle-aged Luke dropped the lightsaber before Ben threw him through the wall.

    If Ben was a cop he might get a medal for immediately putting down the ‘legitimate’ threat.’ Not so much the rest of us.

    The actual ‘attempt’ part.

    The actus reus and causation.

    Aka. Someone doing an act that will cause death.

    You know...considering we’re bringing up ‘crimes’ and legal technicalities and all.
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2018
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  6. David cgc

    David cgc Vice Admiral Premium Member

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    The fact that Ben's next act was to burn down his school and kill anyone who didn't pledge their loyalty to him would probably also count as an aggravating factor. You might be able to get away with Ben blasting Luke through the wall in self-defense in the heat of the moment, but the rest of the night's events provide a lot of support for Luke's initial assessment that Ben was a patricide/geocide/jedicide waiting to happen.
     
  7. Reverend

    Reverend Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I'd go so far as to say that given how quickly he pulled it all off after attacking Luke, it's quite possible we was already planning to destroy the temple and run. That some students apparently went with him is also a good indicator of this since you'd think he'd have to have turned at least some of them beforehand. And yeah it's a fair bet those students are what became the other Knights of Ren.

    Speaking of which, I'm still curious what the whole "Knights of Ren/Kylo Ren" thing is about. I mean, I assume the "Kylo" part is a rank akin to 'Grand Inquisitor' and the others all have corresponding "Ren" titles. But what does the "Ren" part actually mean? Is it a person? Some ancient dark side cult or deity? Is it just a word in some ancient language that has some particular significance?
     
  8. 137th Gebirg

    137th Gebirg Vice Admiral Premium Member

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    So who the hell was Snoke anyway? Just another hidden Sith Lord that just happens to pop up right after Palpetine takes his dive? He was definitely not human, based on his size, and he clearly suffered some kind of physical trauma somewhere along the way. Now that he, too, has gone the way of Maul, will we ever learn his origins? Will anyone care/will it matter to the plot of the final film now that he's gone? Just seems like an enormous plot hole, as big as his superduperbadazz star destroyer.
     
  9. Venardhi

    Venardhi Vice Admiral Admiral

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    It's not so much a hole as a void. You can put something there if you want to imagine the possibilities, but that lack of background or detail doesn't actually create any kind of hole in the existing plot. Snoke is the Supreme Leader, he is extremely powerful and seemingly very old. It may be frustrating that they never elaborate further, but it isn't a plothole.
     
  10. Time is the Fire

    Time is the Fire Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Indeed. And the extreme measues it took to take down Snoke and his ship.
     
  11. JirinPanthosa

    JirinPanthosa Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I wouldn't be surprised if Star Wars IX explores Kylo's decision to turn and doing so fleshes out Snoke some more. But he, quite honestly, was not an interesting villain.
     
  12. Time is the Fire

    Time is the Fire Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Snoke wasn't interesting? Am I reading that right?
     
  13. Venardhi

    Venardhi Vice Admiral Admiral

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    He was nothing. He was a cypher. Another void in a film full of voids. That's a problem if, like myself, you don't care for such voids, but taking time now to fill the conclusion to the trilogy with things that should have been in the first two movies will only be to the detriment of the film and the series as a whole.
     
  14. Reverend

    Reverend Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Snoke was a compelling antagonist, thanks mostly to Serkis's performance. Which is exactly what he needed to be, nothing more, nothing less. I'd even go so far as to say he had a much more dimensional and dynamic personality that Palaptine did in RotJ. Not a knock on the Emperor mind. He also performed his function excellently and that he was a cackling, two dimensional, unabashedly evil villain was kind of the whole point!

    With Snoke though you could tell there was a little bit more going on with him. Not a lot, but enough to make him distinct.
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2018
  15. Time is the Fire

    Time is the Fire Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Agree to disagree and all that. I found him wonderfully engaging, filling in the background of color to Ben's fall and his fight against the Jedi.
     
  16. Qonundrum

    Qonundrum Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    It could be the biggest fake-out ever, right down to sending a wave of energy to fake death to everyone tuned in. All the next sequel makers have to do is convince Mark Hamill the ending was a red herring and he's alive and *boomp* he's back.

    Or maybe not.
     
  17. 11Alive

    11Alive Lieutenant Red Shirt

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    You weren't paying attention. Luke did not enter Ben's room with his lightsaber drawn. In the final, presumably true version that Luke admitted, he went in to look into Ben's sleeping mind. It was only after he did that and sensed incredible evil that he finally drew his saber and turned it on.

    Somehow, I get the feeling this won't sway you. You've already made up your mind that Luke was evil.
     
  18. Time is the Fire

    Time is the Fire Vice Admiral Admiral

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    He won't take convincing. He already tweeted about Episode IX.
    No, it won't. The idea that Luke couldn't react on instinct seems odd to me.
     
  19. LJones41

    LJones41 Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    He was a lousy villain to me. We never really got to know him. He struck me as nothing more that a plot device that had appeared in two films in order to set up Kylo Ren as the main antagonist for the third film. In a way, his irrelevance reminds me of General Grievous.
     
  20. Reverend

    Reverend Vice Admiral Admiral

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    That might be because neither Snoke nor General Grievous were the real villains in those stories. They were antagonists, which is not necessarily the same thing. Kylo was the real villain of TLJ. He's not a tragic figure like Anakin who was brought low by a combination of outside forces, circumstance and his own hubris. He's someone who knew better and chose to be what he is regardless. A jealous, resentful, narcissist.
    Snoke was just there to mostly be a menacing presence within the First Order and as an obstacle for Kylo to overcome.
     
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