Was Kirk supposed to be a Lt. Commander?
- Thread starter Arpy
- Start date
I think we can agree that Enterprise is at least one of the 12 most powerful ships. I didn't say we shouldn't see the Enterprise struggling. I said it's one thing to see Lt. Commander Kirk's lesser ship struggling and something else to see Captain Kirk's Constitution class Enterprise struggling.
From I Mudd, I got the impression that the Enterprise was among the fastest of Starfleet vessels (assuming Mudd knew what he was talking about). But without other contemporary Starfleet vessels to compare it to, it would be hard to say the Enterprise was among the most powerful.
If you accept the ship was a heavy cruiser, and looked at historical heavy cruisers, then it would be optimized for speed and endurance, with medium firepower.
If you accept the ship was a heavy cruiser, and looked at historical heavy cruisers, then it would be optimized for speed and endurance, with medium firepower.
Slightly off topic, but I wonder how Starfleet firepower would fare against the Star Wars' Death Star?
Not sure what the difference is. Especially since in TOS, every ship is of the same class as Kirk's ship.
The OP said "A lieutenant commander could have commanded the Enterprise if it was initially a smaller ship. A corvette?" For the purposes of this thread, we are being asked to not only consider that Kirk is a Lt. Commander instead of a Captain, but also that the ship he is commanding is smaller and, I assume, less powerful than a Constitution class starship. Hence, I am saying that it would be a different experience to see the smaller less powerful ship struggle than to see a Constitution class startship struggle.
But there's no frame of reference. As an audience all we will see is Kirk's ship vs what ever the ship of the week is. Unless we as the audience are told this is a less powerful ship it's irrelevant. The story experience is the same.
General Order 24.
Despite the fact that Kirk's insignia resembles that of a naval LCDR, I would suggest that the lack of insignia for a ENS (which by tradition has the one stripe of a TOS-era Starfleet Lieutenant) implies that Kirk is at least a Commander (IFAIK comparable to USN submarine and cruiser/destroyer commanders?) or more likely a "junior Captain" and a Full Captain (largely unused in the era as a "battleship" types seem to have gone out of favor) would wear three stripes (during TOS or four pips during TNG).
Either:
a) Ensign, Lt JG, Lt, Lt Cmdr, Sub Cmdr, Cmdr/"Captain", Captain; or
b) Ensign, Lt JG, Lt, Lt Cmdr, Cmdr, Captain, Fleet Captain (as a rank not a role).
Either:
a) Ensign, Lt JG, Lt, Lt Cmdr, Sub Cmdr, Cmdr/"Captain", Captain; or
b) Ensign, Lt JG, Lt, Lt Cmdr, Cmdr, Captain, Fleet Captain (as a rank not a role).
Corvette Captain.
Also true.
According to Scotty, back in those days, a starship was a specific type of vessel, separate from other vessels like cruisers, freighters, etc. That would easily explain the Enterprise being the only starship in range to intercept V'Ger if the term was more special back then. "Starship" seemed to become more of a generic term from TNG onwards, IMO.
So to quote the OP again
"A lieutenant commander could have commanded the Enterprise if it was initially a smaller ship. A corvette? That would allow for larger ships in the Trek-verse, like Franz Joseph's Federation Class and Diane Duane's Defender Class, without getting too fan-wanky, for some of us."
I'm taking that to read that Lt. Commander Kirk is commanding a corvette, and we viewers are well aware that there are bigger and more powerful types of ships in the fleet. I can't see how that's not a different viewing experience than watching Captain Kirk command one of the most powerful ships in the fleet and knowing there's nothing more powerful in the fleet.
Because back in the 1960s we didn't have the access to the full spectrum of what Starfleet is and is comprised of. We had no way of knowing Kirk commanded one of the most powerful ships in the fleet. We know that now, because of fifty years worth of fleshed out backstory and material, but back in the 1960s there existed every bit the possibility Starfleet had larger more powerful ships out there. It really wouldn't have mattered one bit if Kirk's rank was Lt. Commander or Captain. What matters is these are the adventures of a ship named the Enterprise, commanded by James Kirk.
Never once in all my viewing of TOS through the 70's did I ever have the impression that Starfleet had any more powerful ships than the Connies.
Probably because of the few times that it was indicated that being captain of a starship was a rare and special thing. And later that there were only a dozen or so like USS Enterprise in Starfleet.
The other way around. We find out there are only a dozen or so ships like the Enterprise in "Tomorrow is Yesterday" (season one), the rare and special thing is hit on in "Bread and Circuses" (season two).
EDIT: I take that back, starship command was hit on as special in "Court Martial".
The other way around. We find out there are only a dozen or so ships like the Enterprise in "Tomorrow is Yesterday" (season one), the rare and special thing is hit on in "Bread and Circuses" (season two).
EDIT: I take that back, starship command was hit on as special in "Court Martial".
I was thinking of "Court Marshal" with the Commodore taking about commanding a starship as something special.
We know that Kirk's ship is special - and specifically because she's part of a special group of a dozen or so ships. But every ship is special; "specialness" is in the eye of the beholder, after all.
And so the people flying Starships (which is the specific special group Kirk's ship belongs to) would feel their ships are the special ones. Kirk is one of 'em, and tellingly, Commodore Stone of "Court Martial" used to be one, too.
Substitute any ship type or class today for Starship and you remain consistent to what was being said. "Jim, we Submariners are a special breed"; "Captain, don't forget that you command an Escort Carrier - the eyes of the world are upon you"; "But Kirk, I thought we Minesweeper skippers held together like a band of brothers?". The commanders of water tankers and fuel lighters would feel proud of their special breed of vessels, without which the whole Navy would grind to a standstill.
As for Kirk's ship being the best Starfleet has to offer, that's not relevant to the plots. Kirk's simply the man on the spot (and almost invariably by accident, not by Starfleet strategic decisionmaking), and all the more excitement if he has to save the universe with substandard equipment.
Timo Saloniemi
And so the people flying Starships (which is the specific special group Kirk's ship belongs to) would feel their ships are the special ones. Kirk is one of 'em, and tellingly, Commodore Stone of "Court Martial" used to be one, too.
Substitute any ship type or class today for Starship and you remain consistent to what was being said. "Jim, we Submariners are a special breed"; "Captain, don't forget that you command an Escort Carrier - the eyes of the world are upon you"; "But Kirk, I thought we Minesweeper skippers held together like a band of brothers?". The commanders of water tankers and fuel lighters would feel proud of their special breed of vessels, without which the whole Navy would grind to a standstill.
As for Kirk's ship being the best Starfleet has to offer, that's not relevant to the plots. Kirk's simply the man on the spot (and almost invariably by accident, not by Starfleet strategic decisionmaking), and all the more excitement if he has to save the universe with substandard equipment.
Timo Saloniemi
But let's say something in the 1970s, say a tie-in novel did make mention to a Starfleet ship more advanced than the Enterprise, it isn't really violating anything from on-screen canon at the time since there was nothing on screen stating there couldn't have been powerful, or perhaps larger ships. Nowadays, a TOS novel set in the TV series era couldn't get away with that, we have pesky canon telling us how it was, but back then, it was possible.
Similar threads
