Was Kirk supposed to be a Lt. Commander?

[The Wormhole]

Not true. Again, "it is unlikely that the show would have unfolded in exactly the same way. And for the purpose of this fun thread on a fun BB, I wonder what others think about what some of those other ways might have been like."

Episodes would have been written differently and other episodes would have been written instead of some. During the series, I could see Kirk being less sure of himself and his ship (and rightly so) if it weren't the baddest ship in the fleet. I could see brinksmanship with the Klingons being more dangerous, as now it's a corvette skipper lieutenant commander dancing on the rapier's edge. I could see in episodes like "Journey to Babel" Sarek think even less of Spock's career path as he's not second in command of a "Starship," with the added significance that had in TOS, but of a perhaps less-vaunted vessel. I could see an episode written where Kirk has to go up against a full captain in command of a cruiser and show his Horatio Hornblower mettle -- a Starfleet v. Starfleet "Balance of Terror"? On and on.

The TV series itself would have been the same, regardless if Kirk was an O6 Captain or a Lt. Commander or whatever. Only the movies would see any difference, and even then, mostly just TMP, where only two years later Lt. Commander Kirk would not be Admiral Kirk. By TWOK Kirk could still easily become an Admiral, and from there on the movies could progress the same way they really did, except maybe with the Enterprise being bigger than it was on TV to justify having an O6 Captain commanding what could have gone to a Lt. Commander earlier.

But yeah, I'll echo what everyone else is saying that the main point of TOS was that Kirk was the guy in charge. He's the ship's Captain, and this would still be true regardless his actual rank. Hell, not much was different on DS9's first three seasons when Sisko was a Commander in stead of being a Captain. Even after he was promoted, aside from an extra pip on his collar, nothing substantial changed. He's still the one in charge.

 

[KennyB]

Pointless threads are delightful.

 

[BillJ]

There simply aren't enough whats and ifs to make this interesting.

Agreed. I just don't see what difference the ranks would make in the stories we got?

 

[Vger23]

Pointless threads are delightful.

Boom

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

It would have made a LOT more sense if the Kirk of ST09 had been a Lieutenant Commander while he took over for Captain Pike at the end of the film.

I mean, he was already a Lieutenant by rank (for most of the film), so it would make perfect sense for him to accept a promotion up one grade while he assumed command of the Enterprise temporarily.

Unfortunately, it seems like ST09's writers didn't trust the fans to know the difference between a Captain by rank, and a Captain by position.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Unfortunately, it seems like ST09's writers didn't trust the fans to know the difference between a Captain by rank, and a Captain by position.

Have any writers for the franchise?

 

[KennyB]

It would have made a LOT more sense if the Kirk of ST09 had been a Lieutenant Commander while he took over for Captain Pike at the end of the film.

I mean, he was already a Lieutenant by rank (for most of the film), so it would make perfect sense for him to accept a promotion up one grade while he assumed command of the Enterprise temporarily.

Unfortunately, it seems like ST09's writers didn't trust the fans to know the difference between a Captain by rank, and a Captain by position.

I don't trust them to chew gum and walk after some afternoons on the TBBS............

 

[Poltargyst]

It would have made a LOT more sense if the Kirk of ST09 had been a Lieutenant Commander while he took over for Captain Pike at the end of the film.

I mean, he was already a Lieutenant by rank (for most of the film), so it would make perfect sense for him to accept a promotion up one grade while he assumed command of the Enterprise temporarily.

Unfortunately, it seems like ST09's writers didn't trust the fans to know the difference between a Captain by rank, and a Captain by position.

No, they just knew that we were expecting Kirk to be a captain, so they just made it happen regardless of how unlikely. I find it pretty unlikely that a guy right out of the academy gets command of a starship regardless of his saving the Federation or how good a student he was. If anyone is going to command the ship right out of the academy, it seems like it should be Spock, but that's not what we were expecting, so they made sure Kirk ended up in command.

 

[Poltargyst]

Kirk is meant to be a Grand Poobah in TOS.

Discuss.

If it involves Kirk wearing a fuzzy hat with buffalo horns, THAT might have an effect on the plots of the show.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

No, they just knew that we were expecting Kirk to be a captain, so they just made it happen regardless of how unlikely.

But that's the thing: Even as a LCDR, Kirk could still be a captain. He'd be in command of the ship, and would be called Captain Kirk. He just wouldn't have the rank of captain - only the position of one.

Unfortunately, the writers did not trust the fans to know the difference.

 

[Arpy]

Oy vey. His being the top crotch is beside the point. No shit he'd still be captain. The point is that the stories they'd have chosen to tell would have been different. Unless of course you have fans who can only accept him as a full captain, which may be the case, given this thread and audiences needing Captain-by-Rank Chris Pine. I don't care how pointless you think this thread is, no one is asking you to participate. That's basically the idea for every thread.

I think Lieutenant Commander Kirk would have been interesting to explore, especially in the rough-and-tumble universe of TOS. Maybe the period the show was written in wouldn't have been sophisticated enough to explore a hero with a smaller phaser in a bigger world. Not as shocking a thought as I'd imagine, given fan reaction in this thread.

 

[Tenacity]

The point is that the stories they'd have chosen to tell would have been different.

Okay, which of the episodes (specific episodes) do you feel would be different?

What new episodes would have been created fresh that only could have involved a commanding officer who was a Lt. Commander?

Court Martial, in the court room scene when Kirk's record was read out, the record would have reflected that Kirk was a Lt. Commander, but then nothing else in the episode would be different.

Kirk would continue to be addressed as captain by his crew.

When Kirk introduced himself in various episodes, he would have used a different rank, but then things would have progressed as before.

 

[Ithekro]

Not sure if the change in rank would effect anything story related. The only time it even mean anything would be in relation to other Starfleet ships and bases. Or perhaps Amok Time when Enterprise is being sent as one of many ships as an honor guard, only to instead go to Vulcan to take care of the ship's Vulcan officer. But that only means his ship being there would be even less important and the wave off provided by T'Pau hold not more honor than before.

The war game might have large ships involved if Enterprise is a lighter ship, but that would require a budget for more models. This would likely place several of the other ships Enterprise runs into with either rogue captains or dead crews as larger ships than Enterprise, or the other individual being a full Commander or higher. USS Constellation would be a larger ship or part of a task force if Decker is still Commodore, or if he was just a full Captain of the Line as oppose to Kirk's Frigate Captain or less status.

The story at Station K7 doesn't change much with a lower rank, unless the Klingons are of higher rank and require for formal contact due to their status, or Barris being even more dismissive of the lowly Lt. Commander assigned to protect the grain because he was all that was nearby at the time. But those don't really change the story, only shift the motivations for the action already in the story.

 

[The Wormhole]

Unfortunately, it seems like ST09's writers didn't trust the fans to know the difference between a Captain by rank, and a Captain by position.

The irony there is, the Abrams movies actually screw things up by having whoever is left in charge of the bridge in the Captain's absence being addressed as "Captain."

Have any writers for the franchise?

Well, there's whoever wrote DS9's Behind the Lines, but otherwise, no.

 

[Herbert]

Oh, I didn't get that this was part of the what-if.

Two stripes for captain didn't start until WNMHGB, by the way. Incredibly, in "The Cage," *everyone* had only one stripe, or none.

Two stripes for a captain would have been a...............



wait for it.....





















Corporal Captain!

 

[J.T.B.]

Corporal Captain!

I don't like it. I don't like it at all.

 

[Herbert]

I don't like it. I don't like it at all.

C'mon, that's out of G-2 and G-3 making a G-5 combined officers op-tech glitch. What's not to like?

 

[Timo]

Reimagining, rebooting, reinterpreting or otherwise adjusting Kirk's rank would be unlikely to make the TOS plots different - Kirk operates in a vacuum in more ways than one, and as long as he's the Captain, that's pretty much that. Where this sort of speculation becomes interesting is when TOS is placed in the context of Star Trek the enduring franchise. Did Kirk fly a top-notch capital ship or a run-down scout? TOS doesn't tell, but in context, the guy with just two stripes would be likely to command the latter. Even more interesting is Pike who wears even less at the same job.

In this greater context, it makes no sense to think that Starfleet suddenly changed the definitions of 1 and 2 stripes, respectively, when stripes have a certain unwavering meaning in shows straddling TOS on the fictional timeline. In contrast, it makes a lot of sense to pay attention to the unknowns of Kirk's status within Starfleet, an organization largely unseen in TOS where the action was aboard and around the single frontier starship. The drama deserves leeway of interpretation, and provides plenty. And now that we know there were ships much larger than Kirk's at that time, some with the flagship status that Kirk's ship lacked, we might wish to make use of that leeway... It doesn't change anything about TOS, except for the perspective.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Poltargyst]

I feel like there's something to be said for Kirk to be a full Captain and in command of Starfleet's most powerful ship. It means we're watching the best that Starfleet has to offer take on the worst that the galaxy has to offer. If Kirk is a Lt. Commander commanding a lesser ship, there's always the feeling of "well, okay, this crew and ship are struggling, but there are more powerful ships in this fleet that could handle this threat." If Captain Kirk's Enterprise is struggling, we're in trouble because Starfleet doesn't have anything better!

 

[Nerys Myk]

I feel like there's something to be said for Kirk to be a full Captain and in command of Starfleet's most powerful ship. It means we're watching the best that Starfleet has to offer take on the worst that the galaxy has to offer. If Kirk is a Lt. Commander commanding a lesser ship, there's always the feeling of "well, okay, this crew and ship are struggling, but there are more powerful ships in this fleet that could handle this threat." If Captain Kirk's Enterprise is struggling, we're in trouble because Starfleet doesn't have anything better!

Is it ever stated that the Enterprise is Starfleet's most powerful ship?
The Enterprise and Kirk are often seen as "struggling". It's part of the drama. If every mission was a cake walk, it would be a pretty boring show.