I guess that’s fair. And it’s certainly true that if Decker hadn’t been there, Kirk would have gotten them all killed in the wormhole (unless somebody else quickly pointed out the phaser redesign).
Was Kirk Really Essential in TMP?
- Thread starter CoveTom
- Start date
I’m sorry, but we cannot allow advocating for piracy. Warning issued, comments to PM, please.
Of course he was essential. That's how they wrote the movie.
In all seriousness though....
The way the Decker character was written, yes, he would have failed to even get as close to the cloud as Kirk did, let alone enter V'Ger. But, as commented, Spock AND McCoy are both equally important. It is, as it often was in TOS, that maintain the balance of emotion, logic and dare that saves the day.
That, and some of the classic 'let's all gather on the bridge at the end of the episode and reminisce philosophically about what just transpired' is what makes this the most TOS of all the Star Trek movies for me personally.
Of course, your mileage may vary.
In all seriousness though....
The way the Decker character was written, yes, he would have failed to even get as close to the cloud as Kirk did, let alone enter V'Ger. But, as commented, Spock AND McCoy are both equally important. It is, as it often was in TOS, that maintain the balance of emotion, logic and dare that saves the day.
That, and some of the classic 'let's all gather on the bridge at the end of the episode and reminisce philosophically about what just transpired' is what makes this the most TOS of all the Star Trek movies for me personally.
Of course, your mileage may vary.
It's not like Shatner wrote the script. He and Nimoy had input the longer the shoot went on, but that stuff was all in place by Roddenberry and Livingston.
If you were talking about any of the last three films, I might agree.
I have to agree. At the end of the day, it did feel like TOS to me, albeit with better production values. Even though we never got to see that implied second 5YM, it exists in my head-canon.
To me, Star Trek V was the turning point where Shatner really stopped playing Kirk and started just playing William Shatner. By Generations, the transformation was 100% complete.
I would half and half agree with that. I feel TUC had a balance of Shatner and Kirk. But yes, you make a fair observation.
Talk about typecasting.
"Well... that's what we'll try to find out."
Keep in mind that "In Thy Image" was written under the assumption that after 13 episodes of "Phase II", Shatner had indicated that he would jump ship if offered a large role in a big budget (non-Trek) theatrical movie. Nimoy had declined and the others signed for five years, but Shatner would only commit to 13 episodes.
The creation of Willard Decker, son of the late Commodore Matthew Decker, was intended to provide a character that could be developed as the future captain of the Enterprise (and lead actor of the new series). So before "Phase II" morphed into TMP, Shatner and Kirk's possible departure was embedded in the concept.
The fact that it was Decker and Ilia who experienced the climactic transformation, it goes against the typical "hero's journey" format of such storytelling. Either Kirk or Spock/Xon should have been the one(s) expected to "learn better" by the audience at the end. Decker and Ilia was conceived as continuing characters.
I think that Kirk's urge to push the ship forward in the mission ultimately made him essential. Decker was reluctant (sometimes with good reason) to drive forward. Kirk was willing to endanger the ship to get the answers Earth and Starfleet needed.
Also, I think the relationship with Spock comes into play here. Would Spock have "offered his services as Science Officer" if Kirk had not been aboard? Spock was certainly essential to the mission in that role. Would he have otherwise just played a backseat role? Would Decker have trusted him?
Ultimately, if Decker had not been willing to take the ship into the cloud (as demonstrated), would they ever have had the opportunity to do anything that resulted in solving the crisis? It seems like much was dependent upon Ilia being re-purposed into "the Probe" so that the crew had a line to V'ger's motives and thinking. Would that have happened if Kirk had not taken the Enterprise into the cloud, over V'ger, etc? I'm not so sure.
I think Kirk's actions resulted in a chain of events that allowed them to complete the mission without having everyone on Earth digitized. In that way, I do think he was essential.
Also, I think the relationship with Spock comes into play here. Would Spock have "offered his services as Science Officer" if Kirk had not been aboard? Spock was certainly essential to the mission in that role. Would he have otherwise just played a backseat role? Would Decker have trusted him?
Ultimately, if Decker had not been willing to take the ship into the cloud (as demonstrated), would they ever have had the opportunity to do anything that resulted in solving the crisis? It seems like much was dependent upon Ilia being re-purposed into "the Probe" so that the crew had a line to V'ger's motives and thinking. Would that have happened if Kirk had not taken the Enterprise into the cloud, over V'ger, etc? I'm not so sure.
I think Kirk's actions resulted in a chain of events that allowed them to complete the mission without having everyone on Earth digitized. In that way, I do think he was essential.
I don't know. Certainly, having Decker be able to get information from the Ilia probe was helpful, but a great deal of the important information also came from Spock's mind meld. Presumably, since Spock was so driven to figure out V'Ger, that would have still happened even if Ilia hadn't gotten zapped.
The ultimate reason why Decker is essential, is that no one would have wanted to merge with the Ilia probe except for him, and that is what ultimately stopped V'Ger. Decker however, never would have reached the inside of V'Ger. So ultimately, the entire plot is about the right people being there are the right time.
Which is what the writer wanted ofcourse.
Which is what the writer wanted ofcourse.
That's an interesting point as well...was the merge essential to V'ger halting the attack? I'm not so sure. V'ger had been convinced that "WE....are the creator," so you'd have to wonder what would have happened if everyone was like "nah....we're good" when the Probe suggests someone must merge.The ultimate reason why Decker is essential, is that no one would have wanted to merge with the Ilia probe except for him, and that is what ultimately stopped V'Ger. Decker however, never would have reached the inside of V'Ger. So ultimately, the entire plot is about the right people being there are the right time.
Which is what the writer wanted ofcourse.
I honestly could see a situation where Kirk may be willing to make the sacrifice if it meant saving humanity.
Also, even though it's not necessarily a happy win, the ship still could have self-destructed if necessary.
No Decker and Kirk has to convince V'ger to kill itself like Nomad.
There was that scene where Decker suggested a phaser strike....that happens, ship and all get instantly "de-rezzed" TRON style.
Kirk hurried in--then showed restraint.
Decker more easy going...but still had a bit too much of his father in him in the end?
In Generations, you had a similar scene play out in a more understandable sense...the kid unsure, the veteran more bold--rushing into action...but yielding to the new captain.
Perfect bookends for the Kirk movies...worthy of a write up in The Explicator if they allowed such things,
or Star Trek Magaz---oh....
Kirk hurried in--then showed restraint.
Decker more easy going...but still had a bit too much of his father in him in the end?
In Generations, you had a similar scene play out in a more understandable sense...the kid unsure, the veteran more bold--rushing into action...but yielding to the new captain.
Perfect bookends for the Kirk movies...worthy of a write up in The Explicator if they allowed such things,
or Star Trek Magaz---oh....
Last edited:
Similar threads
