Was Kes a Good Character?

[Lynx]

But it did take some time before Jennifer Lien stepped forward and told there were no hard feelings. She was quiet for a very long time after being kicked out so I guess that she wasn't that happy over it after all.

Many years ago I was kicked out from a job because of "economical reasons". However, I was more like Beltran , telling people exactly what I thought of the company and their incompetent bosses who screwed up the company's economy.

However, if I was asked about the subject today, I would probably come up with some sweeping explanations, "there are no hard felings", "that was a long time ago and I understand that their economic situation was difficult", "it was fun while it lasted" etc.

But I still think that the bosses were idiots and that I was mistreated!

Back to Voyager, when they kicked out Jennifer, I still think it was a nasty thing to do and I see no reasons for kicking her out either.

And when it come to that episode in season 6, now that was a deliberate insult to the fans of the character.

Call it conspiracy theory or not, I can't see it as anything else because that episode was totally unnecessary.

When it comes to "The Gift" it was a thin and unconvincing story. Kes become an energy being long before her time because of.............what?
It looks like the author wrote the story in five minutes during a coffee break or sitting on the toilet because his bosses had ordered him to write a story just to get rid of Kes as soon as possible. He was probably paid a nice sum of money for it too. I wish I could make money that easy!

 

[2takesfrakes]

What gets me is that, as I understand it, there are staff meetings when they outline, at least, where the show is now, where they want everything to go, and how the characters figure into all of this. Tom, B'Elanna and Seven are really the only characters who seem to have had any forethought applied to them. For everyone else, it's just Busy Work, until they can make it home. This is so hard to understand, because it's chaotic and it leads to mischief. Characters like Kes end up just having a bunch of shit thrown at the wall, to see what sticks, maybe ... and nothing does. THE GIFT falls in line with this, very much.

I love Jennifer Lien, I think she was wonderful as Kes and I'm shocked, honestly, that the show didn't know what to do with her. How do you determine the size of the cast, in the first place, without a plan? Kes gets dragged into all of this, in a rather purposeless way. She was so intuitive and yet, she's not like Troi was in TNG, sitting by the Captain, every day, ready to advise on their next encounter.

To her credit, Janeway does take Kes seriously, always, when she has something to offer. She's never like, "don't worry, Kes, we have this under control. You can go back to painting your nails." But once her information dump is complete, Kes is often made to just linger, around, with nothing else to do. The character clearly had no "intent" behind her, so it's difficult for me to understand how she got past the discussion phase, to being budgeted for. As mentally challenged as he was, Neelix was sufficient as the Delta Quadrant tag-along. Together, though, they're like Beauty & the Beast. And there's some potential there, with that kind of a theme, but not enough to justify it. Again, I adore Kes, but her character's just there out of whimsy. Were I charged with running the show, I'd take a really good look at that ... and make adjustments.

 

[Thomas Eugene]

I can understand being biased towards a character. I have a bias for two characters myself. I know there are a lot of "official" stories floating around the internet, of some "evil" plot against the actress and whatnot. That's fine if you like conspiracy theories. Personally I have seen many of the actors speak in person, including Jennifer Lien herself and they have addressed the subject. All of them have said there were no hard feelings, yes they were sad to see their co worker and friend go, but they all understood it was part of the business. Ms Lien said she was fine with it and had no hard feelings. She simply said her contract wasn't renewed and she moved on. I don't think it's a big deal either way. Hollywood is a tough place and actors know their jobs are all temporary.

The official story was that the producers felt they had reached the end of the character's potential - there's no conspiracy theory there, at least none that I can see.
However, this is in stark contrast for me to the fact that Kes's character was coming along nicely towards the second half of Season 3. YEAR OF HELL was already in the planning with her getting a major role in it. Then suddenly they decided to get rid of her. You start developing a character and then throw her out? Strange.
Also, look at her clothes. In the second half of Season 3 they started making her wear catsuits a la Seven style, which to me suggests that they wanted to sex up the show (at least visually) but the desired result just didn't come into being.
All these things make me wonder whether there was some more going on than the official story. Perhaps there's a conspiracy theory at work here but to me the circumstances are suspicious at the least.

 

[stardream]

I don't think it was a conspiracy theory. I think it was just the Producers and Studio heads doing business as usual. During the time Voyager was filmed this sort of thing wasn't unusual in American TV. Get rid of a character that they believe is not working and replace him or her.

Now, of course, we as fans believe there is a lot more that could have been done with the character but they decided they needed to give the show a good shake up. Some of the powers that be are on record at the time saying that the fans were basically...idiots so of course they won't consider such opinions. They have since apologized. I don't know if it was so much giving a finger to the fans as it was just not taking them into consideration.

 

[Lynx]

What gets me is that, as I understand it, there are staff meetings when they outline, at least, where the show is now, where they want everything to go, and how the characters figure into all of this. Tom, B'Elanna and Seven are really the only characters who seem to have had any forethought applied to them. For everyone else, it's just Busy Work, until they can make it home. This is so hard to understand, because it's chaotic and it leads to mischief. Characters like Kes end up just having a bunch of shit thrown at the wall, to see what sticks, maybe ... and nothing does. THE GIFT falls in line with this, very much.

I love Jennifer Lien, I think she was wonderful as Kes and I'm shocked, honestly, that the show didn't know what to do with her. How do you determine the size of the cast, in the first place, without a plan? Kes gets dragged into all of this, in a rather purposeless way. She was so intuitive and yet, she's not like Troi was in TNG, sitting by the Captain, every day, ready to advise on their next encounter.

To her credit, Janeway does take Kes seriously, always, when she has something to offer. She's never like, "don't worry, Kes, we have this under control. You can go back to painting your nails." But once her information dump is complete, Kes is often made to just linger, around, with nothing else to do. The character clearly had no "intent" behind her, so it's difficult for me to understand how she got past the discussion phase, to being budgeted for. As mentally challenged as he was, Neelix was sufficient as the Delta Quadrant tag-along. Together, though, they're like Beauty & the Beast. And there's some potential there, with that kind of a theme, but not enough to justify it. Again, I adore Kes, but her character's just there out of whimsy. Were I charged with running the show, I'd take a really good look at that ... and make adjustments.

And Kes never had those horrible love stories which Troi was involved in from time to time.
Devinion Ral and Ambassador Alkar! Oh dear, what a showing of bad taste!

But I have to disagre with you on some occasions. I never found Kes as "out of whimsy". She had a muck clearer direction than both harry Kim and Neelix and less of a background character than both of them. Some of the best episodes in the first three seasons did have Kes as the main character or one of the main characters and except for the silly catsuit and change of hairstyle, she was developing into something more important as a character with her telepathic abilities during season 3.

Then they suddeny dump her and the reasons given for that by those in charge are...............well, if this was an NCIS case and I was Gibbs, I would say to them straight out: "You're lying!"

As for the other characters, I get the impression that the romance between Tom and B'elanna was created just to show the viewers that they still were main characters when almost all of the spotlight was directed at Seven, Janeway and The Doctor. Poor Tuvok was actually downgraded to a second-hand character and Chakotay became nothing more than a messenger boy to Janeway. I can understand why Beltran became so frustrated during the later seasons.. Neelix was allowed to pop up from time to time and Kim remained what he was from the beginning, young Ensign Harry Kim.

Kes wasn't the only character who was wasted in the later seasons but she was the one worst hit by the decisions of those in charge. And for that horrible "come-back and be destroyed" episode in season 6, one can only wonder why they did it!

 

[Lynx]

I don't think it was a conspiracy theory. I think it was just the Producers and Studio heads doing business as usual. During the time Voyager was filmed this sort of thing wasn't unusual in American TV. Get rid of a character that they believe is not working and replace him or her.

Now, of course, we as fans believe there is a lot more that could have been done with the character but they decided they needed to give the show a good shake up. Some of the powers that be are on record at the time saying that the fans were basically...idiots so of course they won't consider such opinions. They have since apologized. I don't know if it was so much giving a finger to the fans as it was just not taking them into consideration.

I haven't seen any apology for the episode in season 6 which insulted many fans.
Not for "Endgame" either which also insulted many fans.

 

[stardream]

I haven't seen any apology for the episode in season 6 which insulted many fans.
Not for "Endgame" either which also insulted many fans.

No, but the person in question apologized for calling them names.

 

[Sophie74656]

What gets me is that, as I understand it, there are staff meetings when they outline, at least, where the show is now, where they want everything to go, and how the characters figure into all of this. Tom, B'Elanna and Seven are really the only characters who seem to have had any forethought applied to them. For everyone else, it's just Busy Work, until they can make it home. This is so hard to understand, because it's chaotic and it leads to mischief. Characters like Kes end up just having a bunch of shit thrown at the wall, to see what sticks, maybe ... and nothing does. THE GIFT falls in line with this, very much.

I love Jennifer Lien, I think she was wonderful as Kes and I'm shocked, honestly, that the show didn't know what to do with her. How do you determine the size of the cast, in the first place, without a plan? Kes gets dragged into all of this, in a rather purposeless way. She was so intuitive and yet, she's not like Troi was in TNG, sitting by the Captain, every day, ready to advise on their next encounter.

To her credit, Janeway does take Kes seriously, always, when she has something to offer. She's never like, "don't worry, Kes, we have this under control. You can go back to painting your nails." But once her information dump is complete, Kes is often made to just linger, around, with nothing else to do. The character clearly had no "intent" behind her, so it's difficult for me to understand how she got past the discussion phase, to being budgeted for. As mentally challenged as he was, Neelix was sufficient as the Delta Quadrant tag-along. Together, though, they're like Beauty & the Beast. And there's some potential there, with that kind of a theme, but not enough to justify it. Again, I adore Kes, but her character's just there out of whimsy. Were I charged with running the show, I'd take a really good look at that ... and make adjustments.

From what I've heard the actors talk about yes there are meetings where they discuss the way the character is going. I've heard the actors talk about arranging meetings with producers to ask for specific things that they would like to see with their character, things they don't like, and such.

 

[WebLurker]

I haven't seen any apology for the episode in season 6 which insulted many fans.
Not for "Endgame" either which also insulted many fans.

How the heck did "Endgame" insult fans? I saw it and don't recall anything awful about it.

 

[Sophie74656]

How the heck did "Endgame" insult fans? I saw it and don't recall anything awful about it.

It's just like anything, some people liked it and some didn't. Some that didn't like it take personal offense to it and feel like the producers went out of their way to insult them personally.

 

[Lynx]

How the heck did "Endgame" insult fans? I saw it and don't recall anything awful about it.

The Chakotay/Seven romance annoyed a large group of fans who wanted Janeway/Chakotay instead.

 

[fireproof78]

How the heck did "Endgame" insult fans? I saw it and don't recall anything awful about it.

The Seven/Chakotay romance was considered to be largely left field, as was Tuvok's illness to add a sort of ticking time bomb for the episode.

Basically it set up a bunch of points that were not present at all before and just used to create a sense of drama.

It's just like anything, some people liked it and some didn't. Some that didn't like it take personal offense to it and feel like the producers went out of their way to insult them personally.

Until we get to "These are the Voyages" for Enterprise, in which case many people felt insulted.

 

[stardream]

The Chakotay/Seven romance annoyed a large group of fans who wanted Janeway/Chakotay instead.

There were a lot who wanted Seven/The Doctor.

 

[locutus101]

There were a lot who wanted Seven/The Doctor.

I wonder how many wanted a Paris-Torres coupling beforehand.

 

[stardream]

I wonder how many wanted a Paris-Torres coupling beforehand.

I seem to remember some P/T shippers started to make noise around the time of Faces in season 1.

 

[locutus101]

I seem to remember some P/T shippers started to make noise around the time of Faces in season 1.

Hey, that was quite early. They waited at least two seasons after that before Paris made his first move.

 

[Paradise City]

The only actress Beltran acts around is Dawson.

He's wooden enough acting around Mulgrew and Ryan. So you may have got something out of a Torres pairing but Chak/Janeway would've been a damp squib.

 

[stardream]

Hey, that was quite early. They waited at least two seasons after that before Paris made his first move.

All the early wishful thinking was based on the chemistry between the actors. There were moments in Dreadnought and Threshold that got them really excited. They got giddy around Swarm and then there was a collective faint during Blood Fever. You could hear them scream during Day of Honor.

 

[locutus101]

All the early wishful thinking was based on the chemistry between the actors. There were moments in Dreadnought and Threshold that got them really excited. They got giddy around Swarm and then there was a collective faint during Blood Fever. You could hear them scream during Day of Honor.

But early, B'lanna was supposed to be attracted to Chacotay remember?

 

[2takesfrakes]

And Kes never had those horrible love stories which Troi was involved in from time to time.
Devinion Ral and Ambassador Alkar! Oh dear, what a showing of bad taste!

But I have to disagre with you on some occasions. I never found Kes as "out of whimsy". She had a muck clearer direction than both harry Kim and Neelix and less of a background character than both of them. Some of the best episodes in the first three seasons did have Kes as the main character or one of the main characters and except for the silly catsuit and change of hairstyle, she was developing into something more important as a character with her telepathic abilities during season 3.

Then they suddeny dump her and the reasons given for that by those in charge are...............well, if this was an NCIS case and I was Gibbs, I would say to them straight out: "You're lying!"

As for the other characters, I get the impression that the romance between Tom and B'elanna was created just to show the viewers that they still were main characters when almost all of the spotlight was directed at Seven, Janeway and The Doctor. Poor Tuvok was actually downgraded to a second-hand character and Chakotay became nothing more than a messenger boy to Janeway. I can understand why Beltran became so frustrated during the later seasons.. Neelix was allowed to pop up from time to time and Kim remained what he was from the beginning, young Ensign Harry Kim.

Kes wasn't the only character who was wasted in the later seasons but she was the one worst hit by the decisions of those in charge. And for that horrible "come-back and be destroyed" episode in season 6, one can only wonder why they did it!

Please understand, sir, that I do love Kes, and rightly so. I'm not trying to make an example out of her. I just feel that she was kind thrown to the wolves, from the start and that if she'd been pre-planned with greater care, she would've proved a boon to ratings ... and indispensable to The Powers That Be. Unfortunately, nothing could've been done about her allergies to the makeup. She would've had to wear that wig and having done so, her elfen-pixie outfits would've had to go out the window. I completely agree about the atrocious catsuits they forced on Jennifer. They made her appear to be trying to get attention and it didn't suit Kes, at all. I can't help but feel cheated by those 4 Kesless seasons of VOY. Sometimes, I find myself annoyed at Seven, simply for not being Kes ...