Was Janeway wrong in Scorpion?

[Tribble puncher]

Watching a few Voyager eps. on Netflix. I watched "hope and fear" earlier and I kept wondering if Janeway was wrong for negotiating with the Borg. Should she have just let 8472 wipe out the borg? I mean, canocally we didn't hear much from 8472, and not only that but voyager had a defense against them. I'm sure this has been discussed a billion times before, but I can't seem to find any threads.

 

[DonIago]

There's an interesting take on this in one of the MyrU novels, and I think that's all I'll say about that.

I don't think one can look at the situation in terms of whether Janeway was "wrong" or not. She obviously didn't have the benefit of knowing how things would turn out. 8472 could have proven to be at least as problematic as the Borg.

 

[Guy Gardener]

8472 shared porn with Voyager, do you think that the Romulans shared porn with the Klingons?

 

[bbjeg]

Janeway chose the lesser of two evils. Both species were destructive (one assimilated, the other eradicated) but a dialogue couldn't be opened with 8472 and with the leverage she had over the Borg (with crew in mind) Janeway chose right out of the options she had IMO.

 

[Bry_Sinclair]

Right from the start they should've been forming better, stronger alliances and relationships with other races, bringing them together in defence against the numerous hostiles in the DQ. So in "Scorpion" they should've let 8472 destroy the Borg, all the while developing their nanite weapon, then afterwards brought together their united fleet and forced 8472 back to their realm. It would've put an end to two serious threats the galaxy faced. Plus we'd never have been forced to suffer through Seven and get to enjoy Kes' growth.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Any Empire large enough to be useful to Voyager long enough is too big to take Voyager seriously as anything more than a transient vagrant.

 

[BruntFCA]

In hindsight? Of course she was. But at the time she made the decision with the knowledge she had? I'm not sure, although believing that the Borg would keep their word was stupid.

 

[hux]

Before Scorpion, i thought Janeway was a reasonably likeable captain but after Scorpion, i found it hard not to dislike her

In universe, she behaves very strangely and exhibits an unpleasant personality we hadn't previously seen which made her look like she was having breakdown (it was badly written)

In real life, they clearly wanted to bring Jeri Ryan into the show and they wanted her to be Borg so this is the quick fix they came up with...two episodes later, she's wearing a catsuit, acting like she's always been a member of the crew and species 8472 are pretty much finished with

It was also the episode that showed how impotent Chakotay really was which was disappointing too

 

[Bad Thoughts]

^Seven of Nine had not yet been introduced when Janeway decided to "make a deal with the Devil." Had the part even been cast when the episode was filmed, and had it already been determined that the new character would be a reclaimed Borg?

To the larger question, I was always disappointed with this episode because of the change in Janeway's character: she became too preoccupied with disagreements with Chakotay, seemingly flying off the rail that he should "question her authority."

 

[Shat Happens]

also we got 7/9 out of the deal

 

[DonIago]

I don't think it can be argued that Janeway was "right" either, as the MyrU story I referenced earlier posits an alternate timeline where it could be argued things in the galaxy turned out for the greater good.

I agree that her treatment of Chakotay (and to some extent the fact that he just sat there and took it) was deplorable. Sadly this style of "take no prisoners" command seemed to become the norm for her; witness her utter dismissal of the EMH in "Year of Hell".

When the captain starts expressing a belief that the regulations no longer apply to them, they've simply validated any claims that they're no longer fit to be in command.

 

[MacLeod]

Janeway chose the lesser of two evils. Both species were destructive (one assimilated, the other eradicated) but a dialogue couldn't be opened with 8472 and with the leverage she had over the Borg (with crew in mind) Janeway chose right out of the options she had IMO.

WHilst she does have a responsibility to her crew, she has a larger responsibilty to the Federation as a whole. Given that consideration was it the right decision?

 

[Tribble puncher]

Janeway chose the lesser of two evils. Both species were destructive (one assimilated, the other eradicated) but a dialogue couldn't be opened with 8472 and with the leverage she had over the Borg (with crew in mind) Janeway chose right out of the options she had IMO.

WHilst she does have a responsibility to her crew, she has a larger responsibilty to the Federation as a whole. Given that consideration was it the right decision?

As I think about it more, Janeway never saw species 8472 (The Undine?) attack non-borg targets, with the exception of her ship and crew (Voyager was parked next to a cube though.) So based on what she saw, 8472 wasn't butchering innocent species. did 8472 ever say (telepathically or otherwise?) that they were going to destroy the Galaxy? and if memory serves, there was a later ep. where 8472 had some elaborate facility mimicking starfleet academy for training purposes, and Chakotay would up making peace with them or something. So, what it boils down to is Janeway makes a snap decision that affects billions or trillions of lives...but all she cares about is her 150 crew, and a ship that even if the borg had assimilated they wouldn't had gained anything useful, because if Janeway had half a brain, if Voyager was getting assimilated she would have some auto program that would wipe the main computer, fill the air on board with a fast acting painless toxin, and then distruct the ship 5 seconds after that, to prevent the nanite cure from falling into borg hands.

 

[DonIago]

If nothing else, Janeway's decision here led to Arturis'(?) race being assimilated (sooner than they might have been otherwise) as discussed in "Hope and Fear".

 

[GotNoRice]

I think she was wrong, but not for helping the Borg. She was wrong for not taking better advantage of her situation.

It's obviously not that big of a deal for the Borg to send a ship to the Alpha Quadrant via transwarp - why didn't Janeway ask for help getting back to the Alpha Quadrant as compensation? I doubt transporting one ship is a big deal for the Borg, they probably would have agreed without much hassle or persuasion.

 

[Captain Kathryn]

If you watch "Hope and Fear" (which you have) and the later one "In the Flesh" you'll see that some of her actions regarding that decision come back to bite her a bit.

However, "Scorpion" gave us Seven of Nine, so I can't hate on it.

As for the in-universe moral choice...I can't really say whether or not she was right or wrong. It's kind of akin to two countries that are at war. Then another country comes along and attacks both of you. It's sort of "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" sort of analogy.

 

[DonIago]

I can see how that goes...the Borg escort Voyager to Earth, then promptly blow the ship up and assimilate Earth.

 

[Guy Gardener]

The Borg escort Voyager to Earth, sign a Non Aggression Pact with the Federation, which is when all the undecideds and a couple of her Enemies immediately petition for Federation membership, uniting the Alpha Quadrant in wholesome solidarity.

This is the hinky thing... The Borg were Escorting Voyager through Borg space, which was a warzone, at only warp speed, which was going to take ten years. The Borg could have taken Voyager to the other side of Borg space in minutes, the 10 thousand light year gift which Kes gave the crew, completing their experiments in relative safety, while the Voyager crew is happy that they had had 10 years shaved off their journey home if they could sidestep assimilation at the rear end of their deal.

 

[bbjeg]

^Agreed. It always puzzled me. Her "Safe passage through Borg space" definitely would have taken too long for them to retaliate against species 8472. Maybe that was her plan, let 8472 destroy the Borg during her safe passage.

Janeway chose the lesser of two evils. Both species were destructive (one assimilated, the other eradicated) but a dialogue couldn't be opened with 8472 and with the leverage she had over the Borg (with crew in mind) Janeway chose right out of the options she had IMO.

WHilst she does have a responsibility to her crew, she has a larger responsibilty to the Federation as a whole. Given that consideration was it the right decision?

As I think about it more, Janeway never saw species 8472 (The Undine?) attack non-borg targets, with the exception of her ship and crew (Voyager was parked next to a cube though.) So based on what she saw, 8472 wasn't butchering innocent species. did 8472 ever say (telepathically or otherwise?) that they were going to destroy the Galaxy? and if memory serves, there was a later ep. where 8472 had some elaborate facility mimicking starfleet academy for training purposes, and Chakotay would up making peace with them or something. So, what it boils down to is Janeway makes a snap decision that affects billions or trillions of lives...but all she cares about is her 150 crew, and a ship that even if the borg had assimilated they wouldn't had gained anything useful, because if Janeway had half a brain, if Voyager was getting assimilated she would have some auto program that would wipe the main computer, fill the air on board with a fast acting painless toxin, and then distruct the ship 5 seconds after that, to prevent the nanite cure from falling into borg hands.

IIRC, didn't Kes link with one who basically said they were going to "purge" our galaxy?

 

[Bad Thoughts]

^Agreed. It always puzzled me. Her "Safe passage through Borg space" definitely would have taken too long for them to retaliate against species 8472. Maybe that was her plan, let 8472 destroy the Borg during her safe passage.

WHilst she does have a responsibility to her crew, she has a larger responsibilty to the Federation as a whole. Given that consideration was it the right decision?

As I think about it more, Janeway never saw species 8472 (The Undine?) attack non-borg targets, with the exception of her ship and crew (Voyager was parked next to a cube though.) So based on what she saw, 8472 wasn't butchering innocent species. did 8472 ever say (telepathically or otherwise?) that they were going to destroy the Galaxy? and if memory serves, there was a later ep. where 8472 had some elaborate facility mimicking starfleet academy for training purposes, and Chakotay would up making peace with them or something. So, what it boils down to is Janeway makes a snap decision that affects billions or trillions of lives...but all she cares about is her 150 crew, and a ship that even if the borg had assimilated they wouldn't had gained anything useful, because if Janeway had half a brain, if Voyager was getting assimilated she would have some auto program that would wipe the main computer, fill the air on board with a fast acting painless toxin, and then distruct the ship 5 seconds after that, to prevent the nanite cure from falling into borg hands.

IIRC, didn't Kes link with one who basically said they were going to "purge" our galaxy?

That dialogue came in part II, and let's face it, how much faith can be put in the telepathic equivalent of a tenth-grade Spanish student?