Spoilers Was it a mistake to kill Kirk in Star Trek Generations?

[Khan 2.0]

Honestly, I'd have liked The Return -- or, its original title, "The Fires of Olympus" -- more than First Contact, but that's just me.

i guess Berman couldve gone with more TOS in future movies instead of one and done/pure TNG from now on - STVIII as The Return (featuring Shatner, Nimoy, maybe Doohan) and then just had whatever TOS characters pop up in future movies if needed..and made the TNG movies more 'Marvel' like with Kirk Spock etc occasionally cameoing like Tony Stark etc.. also brought back the BTS guys Meyer, Nimoy, even Bennett.. and maybe the 'original' Trek film series wouldnt have fizzed out so early

 

[Allyn Gibson]

i guess Berman couldve gone with more TOS in future movies instead of one and done/pure TNG from now on - STVIII as The Return (featuring Shatner, Nimoy, maybe Doohan) and then just had whatever TOS characters pop up in future movies if needed..and made the TNG movies more 'Marvel' like with Kirk Spock etc occasionally cameoing like Tony Stark etc.. also brought back the BTS guys Meyer, Nimoy, even Bennett.. and maybe the 'original' Trek film series wouldnt have fizzed out so early

I've thought for a while that Berman, when he was handed the reins to the film franchise, should have made one more TOS film, with whichever actors he needed/could get (ie., probably not Kelley, because his health and frailty made him uninsurable), in 1994, followed by a crossover film in 1996, and TNG solo film in 1998-9. But, that's also a level of long-term planning that Hollywood didn't do at the time.

I wish the Star Trek films adopted more of a "let's use the characters we need" attitude. Like, Nemesis is Romulan-heavy; why isn't Nimoy reprising Spock in that film?

 

[Khan 2.0]

I've thought for a while that Berman, when he was handed the reins to the film franchise, should have made one more TOS film, with whichever actors he needed/could get (ie., probably not Kelley, because his health and frailty made him uninsurable), in 1994, followed by a crossover film in 1996, and TNG solo film in 1998-9. But, that's also a level of long-term planning that Hollywood didn't do at the time.

I wish the Star Trek films adopted more of a "let's use the characters we need" attitude. Like, Nemesis is Romulan-heavy; why isn't Nimoy reprising Spock in that film?

94: VII: Ashes of Eden
96: Generations
98: The Return
00: First Contact
02: Nemesis (w Spock)
04: Endgame

 

[Mister Spock]

If they had Kirk returned to life in the subsequent film, it would've been seen as just a rehash of The Search for Spock.

 

[Nerys Myk]

If they had Kirk returned to life in the subsequent film, it would've been seen as just a rehash of The Search for Spock.

The Quest for Kirk.

 

[STEPhon IT]

Kirk and David didn't have any scenes together in TSFS, and only one really positive scene in TWoK (the one where he said he was proud to be Kirk's son). That's not much to show in the Nexus. To really sell it, they'd have needed new footage to show Kirk being reluctant to leave.

The director, David Carson, didn't have an issue creating a silhouetted character on top of a hill for Kirk's newly discovered fantasy love interest in Generations. He could've did the same with David and allow the viewer to implant the image of the late actor Merritt Butrick.

94: VII: Ashes of Eden
96: Generations
98: The Return
00: First Contact
02: Nemesis (w Spock)
04: Endgame

That would've been respectable because you're a fan but that is not how Hollywood thinks, their motto is to bring in the great characters we love to draw in a crowd and shit all over them JUST to make their characters look better.

 

[suarezguy]

The basic problem with Generations is that Kirk is irrelevant to the story, and that's something Shatner brought up in his meetings with Berman, Moore, and Braga.

Generations was just an awful, badly-written, pointless mess.

Most crossovers don't work, it's very hard to make them work, to not have one star or group come off as lesser.

It seems most people want Kirk to have saved the day by commanding the Enterprise, if so then how would you have had that without making Picard and Riker come off as at best pretty irrelevant?

 

[Paradise City]

The TNG writers didn't know what to do with Kirk --other than kill him -- so his appearances are kind of awkwardly spliced on there. Kirk dies and the focus promptly shifted to "Spot The Cat" - a character the writers that were comfortable writing about. The movie was funny in that way.

 

[Phoenix219]

i guess Berman couldve gone with more TOS in future movies instead of one and done/pure TNG from now on - STVIII as The Return (featuring Shatner, Nimoy, maybe Doohan) and then just had whatever TOS characters pop up in future movies if needed..and made the TNG movies more 'Marvel' like with Kirk Spock etc occasionally cameoing like Tony Stark etc.. also brought back the BTS guys Meyer, Nimoy, even Bennett.. and maybe the 'original' Trek film series wouldnt have fizzed out so early

I've always said that - they needed to broaden the scope; they should have been able to mix and match whatever characters they needed from any of the current shows, plus TOS, and made it a shared Universe, with the ability to send any pairings out on entertaining buddy-pair ups side missions and what not. Kirk should have temporarily had to take command of the Enterprise D, and use his Nexus expertise to pry Picard out of his fantasy. Kirk should have exited first, and gotten to interact with everyone, before his big moments with Picard.

 

[Phoenix219]

I would have preferred that we never knew what happened to Kirk. No Enterprise B or anything like that. Let’s his fate be a great untold story.

Like, maybe he followed Spock into the diplomatic corps. Maybe he died in command of his own personal ship trying to save a group of people with the odds stacked against them. Just leave it up to the viewer to use their imagination.

I do think it was a good idea to not have him interact with the Enterprise D crew beyond Picard. Having him take command against the Duras for example would have just been silly.

Why? Thats exactly what I wanted to see, Kirk kicking ass one more time in the ways only he can....

 

[Phoenix219]

I have an easier time believing the horses as in-character for Kirk than I do that his dream woman would be an unknown "Antonia" who we never saw in any episode or movie. It should have been Edith Keeler.

That whole Generations movie was a waste of time. The notion that Picard's fantasy would be a Victorian Christmas is just silly. He doesn't even like kids, except for his nephew (and what's up with killing off Rene? Robert wasn't anyone I missed, but he was important enough to Picard for his death to mess with Picard's mind).

If they wanted to combine the generations, they should have optioned the novel Federation - which would also have given them Zephram Cochrane, so they wouldn't have had to bother with the First Contact movie, either. And the end of that novel offers a terrific jumping off point for a new TV series that isn't so close to the TNG, Enterprise, or DiscoTrek series that it would have cause eye-rollingly bad continuity muckups.

I haven't read that in decades and honestly have no memories of it anymore - the summary says Kirk is mulling retirement at 62 - which era is this book set in?? Post TUC?? .... no idea how the novel ends, either. Going back to reading the summary now lmfao.

 

[Timewalker]

The TNG writers didn't know what to do with Kirk --other than kill him -- so his appearances are kind of awkwardly spliced on there. Kirk dies and the focus promptly shifted to "Spot The Cat" - a character the writers that were comfortable writing about. The movie was funny in that way.

They could never agree on whether Spot was male or female.

I haven't read that in decades and honestly have no memories of it anymore - the summary says Kirk is mulling retirement at 62 - which era is this book set in?? Post TUC?? .... no idea how the novel ends, either. Going back to reading the summary now lmfao.

The actual ending takes place far in the future, with the captain of a new ship about to take off to explore another galaxy. This would mean not being tied to any baggage from the TOS/TNG/Temporal Cold War era (not that the TCW was a thing at the time Federation was written, as it was well before the Enterprise series). It would have ended the movie series for the TOS/TNG actors, but I'd have been fine with that, as the final two were just a waste of time anyway.

 

[fireproof78]

their motto is to bring in the great characters we love to draw in a crowd

Yes...

shit all over them JUST to make their characters look better.

No. I would love to hear from a Hollywood writer who goes "You know what would be fun? Ruining this character. It would be hilarious. That would show those plebes!"

 

[dupersuper]

The actual ending takes place far in the future, with the captain of a new ship about to take off to explore another galaxy.

It's been many years since I read it, but wasn't it another dimension?

 

[Timewalker]

It's been many years since I read it, but wasn't it another dimension?

Nope, not that I recall. The way it happened, was that far in the future, when the various races of our galaxy finally achieved peace and mutual cooperation, an artifact activated just beyond the Milky Way. It turned out to be some sort of message, giving information on building and using a new kind of warp drive (sidewarp) that would allow a ship to reach other galaxies. It was a kind of "congratulations on finally growing up. Come on over and visit" message.

The first of these ships was, of course, named "Enterprise" (in the language of that time), captained by a woman whose DNA had traces of many different races (human, Vulcan, Klingon, etc.).

As mentioned, far in the future, well beyond even the current timespan reached in whatever the hell's going on in DiscoTrek (not that DiscoTrek was even thought of at the time the novel was written, but it's just too close to now to be part of the future time the end of the novel is talking about.

Oh, and this new warp technology actually has nothing to do with the Kirk/Picard portion of Federation, so I'm not spoiling anything in that by mentioning this.

 

[MakeshiftPython]

I'm perfectly fine with the idea of killing off Kirk. I just wish Kirk was better utilized before his death. If you watch the trailer, it's cut in a way to make it look like Kirk is part of the entire adventure. Like Klingons fire at the Enterprise-D and then it shows a clip of Shatner being thrown to the deck wall.

Moore and Braga went onto express how they wish they made Kirk more integral to the story, was there a specific reason why they only used Kirk the way they did? Was Shatner only allowing a certain amount of time? Did Berman only want Kirk for a certain amount of time?

 

[Discofan]

Well, Kirk was enjoying himself when he died so maybe we could title this thread: "To kill a Mocking Kirk."

 

[Khan 2.0]

I'm perfectly fine with the idea of killing off Kirk. I just wish Kirk was better utilized before his death. If you watch the trailer, it's cut in a way to make it look like Kirk is part of the entire adventure. Like Klingons fire at the Enterprise-D and then it shows a clip of Shatner being thrown to the deck wall.

Moore and Braga went onto express how they wish they made Kirk more integral to the story, was there a specific reason why they only used Kirk the way they did? Was Shatner only allowing a certain amount of time? Did Berman only want Kirk for a certain amount of time?

My guess is Berman, or the studio .. if it was up to Shatner the entire story would've been about Kirk, in every scene, line counting against Stewarts, cutting Dorn promotion scene, taking the director to one side to demand Burton and Sirtis' reaction close ups

 

[MakeshiftPython]

Ron Moore noted that the original Kirk death where he gets shot in the back was inspired by the John Wayne film SANDS OF IWO JIMA, where The Duke's character gets shot in the back at the end. I think it could have worked, but because Kirk is not integrally involved in the story and has no connection to Soran, it wouldn't have packed the same kind of punch. More arbitrary than tragic. The reshot ending works better for the actual film they made, but only just. It needed a complete reworking from beginning to end.

Come to think of it, Kor got a much more memorable exit on DS9 that would have been worthy for Kirk.

 

[STEPhon IT]

Kirk's death should've been him sitting in the Captain's chair fulfilling his dream of commanding a vessel again. Not falling off a bridge pressing buttons on a remote or getting shot in the back.