Yeah, I thought it was simply a case of Starfleet having two captain grades during TOS (just like there are multiple admiral grades in today's navies), with commodore being above both of them.
Me neither, or more accurately, I never liked it.
.Was Fleet Captain necessary?
- Thread starter James Wright
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But he was talking about how Pike was, not how Pike is. Pike is a cripple now. Pike was a strapping young Captain like Kirk once.(Side note: Commodore Mendez told Kirk that Pike was "about your age" despite the fact that Pike had been Captain of the Enterprise 13 years before, and Jeffrey Hunter didn't look like he was 20 at the time.)
And we already know what "once" Mendez would be referring to - his clipped little sentence is in direct response to Kirk talking about Pike's promotion to Captain. It makes perfect dramatic sense that Mendez would be saying
- Kirk brash young Captain now, prime of his life
- Pike brash young Captain then, prime of his life
-> how cruelly Fate kicks us in the groin...
That is, I do think the writer carefully considered what he was writing, and fully intended to convey the idea that Pike was much Kirk's senior. He merely wanted to stress the fact that Pike is a frightening possible alternate future of our primary hero, to make us feel greater sympathy for this out-of-the-left-field guest star from the get-go.
Timo Saloniemi
The rank did not quite disappear post The Menagerie. I think you have forgotten Fleet Captain Garth from Whom Gods Destroy.
Personally I always figured a Fleet Captain as a junior flag officer commanding a 3-5 ship squadron, probably on the frontier, or a deputy to an Admiral. Pike seemed to have the later job, while Garth had apparently been the former.
Personally I always figured a Fleet Captain as a junior flag officer commanding a 3-5 ship squadron, probably on the frontier, or a deputy to an Admiral. Pike seemed to have the later job, while Garth had apparently been the former.
I look at fleet captain as being like what commodore is in the current US Navy. Star Fleet places the rank title of Commodore as that of the lowest flag grade, or one star. This is the place of the present day USN rank of Rear Admiral Lower Half, which was used because of how Commodore is used in the present day USN:
So, Star Fleet uses the title of Fleet Captain for such captains and allows them to wear three solid stripes spaced apart as their rank insignia. This shows their level above that of regular captain, two solid one broken, as well as not being a flag officer, one star commodores having three solid stripes together as a single band, with admirals adding solid bands beyond that.
So, Star Fleet uses the title of Fleet Captain for such captains and allows them to wear three solid stripes spaced apart as their rank insignia. This shows their level above that of regular captain, two solid one broken, as well as not being a flag officer, one star commodores having three solid stripes together as a single band, with admirals adding solid bands beyond that.
I went to check the exact quotes in the transcripts at http://www.chakoteya.net/index.html. I am uncertain how accurate that site is, but it is what I have right now.
The Menagerie said:
Whom Gods Destroy said:
If this is reliable, the lack of capitalization in Garth's title seems significant.
Sort of like the academics will say "Full Professor" to imply that you don't have those pesky adjectivers like "Associate" or "Assistant." Quite reasonable.
I think I know why they invented the rank of Fleet Captain. They needed to promote him to a flag rank so he could be in the court marshal, but they didn't want to confuse the audience by having him referred to as Commodore half the time and Captain half the time (and potentially conflict with some of their stock footage), so they gave him a rank that could be abbreviated as Captain by the characters.
...Yet in the previous episode where they did a court martial (indeed, in airing order, it was the episode just preceding this one!), only one officer of flag rank was needed; the rest of the people judging over Kirk were of the same rank as Kirk himself. So there wouldn't be a need to give Pike flag rank by Trek precedent.
It's difficult to think of other reasons, either. If it were dramatically necessary to have three different ranks, with Mendez being explicitly senior to Pike who'd be explicitly senior to Kirk, the writer could simply have given Mendez a higher rank. It wouldn't be out of order to use a Rear Admiral Mendez here - especially since the episode never tries to claim that Mendez would be holding the same job as Commodore Stone (the base commander in the previous episode) or the other known Commodores in charge of starbases. Mendez' association with SB11 is very loose, only mentioned in the passing at the very end of Part II where he signs off from SB11. And even that is done in order to tell the audience that he's not aboard the Enterprise (it was all an illusion) but on that faraway base - the purpose is not to establish that Mendez commands SB11.
Timo Saloniemi
It's difficult to think of other reasons, either. If it were dramatically necessary to have three different ranks, with Mendez being explicitly senior to Pike who'd be explicitly senior to Kirk, the writer could simply have given Mendez a higher rank. It wouldn't be out of order to use a Rear Admiral Mendez here - especially since the episode never tries to claim that Mendez would be holding the same job as Commodore Stone (the base commander in the previous episode) or the other known Commodores in charge of starbases. Mendez' association with SB11 is very loose, only mentioned in the passing at the very end of Part II where he signs off from SB11. And even that is done in order to tell the audience that he's not aboard the Enterprise (it was all an illusion) but on that faraway base - the purpose is not to establish that Mendez commands SB11.
Timo Saloniemi
I wouldn't count on it too heavily. But you can do as you like.
So apparently flag rank wasn't needed, just "command" rank.
As a side note: although The Menagerie was 16th in order of production, it aired as episodes 11 and 12, in November 1966. Court Martial, although produced 15th, did not air until February 1967 as the 20th episode.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0060028/episodes
I agree that it seems that they wanted Pike to have been promoted when he left the Enterprise, but Mendez to outrank Pike. I agree also that this could have been done by making Mendez an Admiral. My initial reaction was that there weren't Admirals in TOS, but that isn't true. So why not make Mendez and Admiral?
Well, I think I qualified my statement enough to make it clear that I am NOT relying on it to be accurate. I made it clear I could not vouch for their accuracy, and that my conclusions would depend on their accuracy. What more do you want?
Do you have access to a more acurate record of the script? Do you have evidence as to the accuracy (or lack there of) of the transcripts at that site? Do you have any information as to how those transcripts were compiled?
Or are you just trying to belittle me for some reason?
Or even my own habit of using "Full Commander" to distinguish them from Lieutenant Commanders, and "Full Lieutenant" to distinguish them from JGs.
A possible flaw in this is that Kirk says he met Pike "When he was promoted to Fleet Captain." This means that before Kirk and Pike met, Pike held some different rank. (Perhaps a merchant Captain, or perhaps a Commander in command of a ship.)
Now, at this point Kirk is only 33, and the flashbacks are 13 years earlier, so Kirk would have been 20 at the time. It is possible that Kirk met Pike when Kirk was 20, on the occasion of Pike becoming a Captain in Starfleet when he had previously been a Captain of some other sort. This stands in contrast, however, to the prevailing opinion that Kirk had met Pike just a few years earlier, when taking over command of the Enterprise.
So, if you decide that "Fleet Captain" is used in this episode to distinguish that Pike had been some other kind of Captain before he got Enterprise (and remember that Kirk uses the term twice, but then it isn't used again even within the episode), then Kirk and Pike met a long time ago.
Which makes a certain amount of sense when Commodore Mendez describes Pike to Kirk: if they had met just a few years ago, Kirk would likely remember him and not need to be reminded that he had been young and vital.
...OTOH, it's possible that Kirk had kept in touch with Pike a lot - he doesn't say he met Pike once, only that he had indeed met Pike prior to the episode.
And it's a bit unlikely that the two wouldn't meet (again) when the ship became Kirk's. After all, conventional wisdom has it that Pike handed over the ship. There could of course have been an intermediate skipper there for the Enterprise, but then Spock would probably have been off the ship, accompanying Pike wherever said Captain was working at the time. And that would make it a bit less likely that Kirk would "inherit" Spock and be forced to tolerate him as his XO on his important mission to the Galactic Barrier...
Right. Back to back in production order. Not in airdate order (or stardate order, the standard by which I live and breathe). Fumbled it. Got it now. Will fumble it again in the future. Sorry!
Timo Saloniemi
And it's a bit unlikely that the two wouldn't meet (again) when the ship became Kirk's. After all, conventional wisdom has it that Pike handed over the ship. There could of course have been an intermediate skipper there for the Enterprise, but then Spock would probably have been off the ship, accompanying Pike wherever said Captain was working at the time. And that would make it a bit less likely that Kirk would "inherit" Spock and be forced to tolerate him as his XO on his important mission to the Galactic Barrier...
Right. Back to back in production order. Not in airdate order (or stardate order, the standard by which I live and breathe). Fumbled it. Got it now. Will fumble it again in the future. Sorry!
Timo Saloniemi
My own guess is that admirals were seen as HQ brass who rarely left their desks. As a commodore, Mendez was still basically a line officer, even if he commanded a starbase.
In that case, commodore would be the senior of three captain grades during TOS, IMO.
Am I mistaken or not, in Britain's Royal Navy don't commodores command naval training facilities? It sounds like Pike was preparing to do the same kind of job.
James
James
Funny, I thought Gary Mitchell was XO on the mission to the Galactic Barrier, and Spock was made XO at Kirk's request after Mitchell was killed, because of his performance in that crisis.
I have no idea where I got that idea, as I can find nothing in the episode to explicitly support it.
The popular vote is split on that. Spock wears the Command color (gold), being the only other apart from Kirk to do so; Mitchell wears what would later become a Utility color of sorts (brown, to be replaced by red).
Both officers wear the same rank marking of one solid stripe, or what would later become Lieutenant (but may here denote Lieutenant Commander, since Gary Mitchell was said to hold that rank - albeit posthumously!). Both are present when meetings of department heads are gathered (except when Mitchell is covalescent). Both are busy operating the ship during the meeting with the Galactic Barrier, and neither has time for the classic XO behavior of hovering over the other officers and translating the skipper's general orders into specific commands.
At one point, there's dialogue that might suggest Spock is the Science Officer; OTOH, the same dialogue might suggest that he is not, and in any case being SO never stopped him from being XO later on.
For the bulk of the movie, neither of these two is in a position to exercise rank over the other, so we don't see how that would pan out.
Timo Saloniemi
Both officers wear the same rank marking of one solid stripe, or what would later become Lieutenant (but may here denote Lieutenant Commander, since Gary Mitchell was said to hold that rank - albeit posthumously!). Both are present when meetings of department heads are gathered (except when Mitchell is covalescent). Both are busy operating the ship during the meeting with the Galactic Barrier, and neither has time for the classic XO behavior of hovering over the other officers and translating the skipper's general orders into specific commands.
At one point, there's dialogue that might suggest Spock is the Science Officer; OTOH, the same dialogue might suggest that he is not, and in any case being SO never stopped him from being XO later on.
For the bulk of the movie, neither of these two is in a position to exercise rank over the other, so we don't see how that would pan out.
Timo Saloniemi
There were others wearing the gold shirt color, including Yeoman Smith, but Kirk and Spock both wore the badge with the star device. If only one senior officer wears the same insignia as the captain, the XO would be the most likely candidate.
And Dr. Dehner calls him "Commander" when they first meet, and his personnel file shows his rank as lieutenant commander.
--Justin
True enough: Smith, plus one extra on the bridge and another (the same?) down on the planet. Also, intriguingly, it seems that only Kirk and Spock wore any rank braid with that color...
A compound mistake, perhaps? Dehner would know Mitchell through his personnel files, after all.
Although the seventeen-year-old Chekov in STXI lends surprising credence to the idea that Starfleet would have 23-year-old Lieutenant Commanders...
Timo Saloniemi
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