.Was Fleet Captain necessary?

[Brutal Strudel]

Basically, it's the only issue on which UFP SF really dares differ from USN. As such, it undermines the idea that alien rank systems could be translated in terms of the "human" one; if the humans haven't managed to "standardize" their own system, then such translations would become quite futile. (I might buy there being a standard translation where the starting rank each culture prefers for the CO of a ship gets called "Captain", but it would be weird to call an ill-defined alien rank "Major" unless one could find direct parallels, a six-step line officer scale and so forth.)

Timo Saloniemi

But Trek never suggested alien ranks were so easily translated. The Romulans had ranks of Centurion and Sub-Commander with a rank of Commander that seems to correspond more to Captain or Commodore. We never get a fix on what Klingon ranks were in TOS: Koloth is a Captain, Kang is a Commander and do we ever find out what Kor was? And this is long before the Ferengi with their Daemons and the Cardassians with their Glins, Guls and Legates.

...

To avoid confusion between Pike's rank and position, Kirk would thus emphasize the former by adding the seldom used specifier "Fleet". Kirk could have applied the same specifer to himself if he wished, or addressed Mendez as "Fleet Commodore" (perhaps to distinguish him from a convoy commodore or from a civilian with the title Commodore), but there was no corresponding need for that at the time.

...

Sort of like the academics will say "Full Professor" to imply that you don't have those pesky adjectivers like "Associate" or "Assistant." Quite reasonable.

Hell, I only have an MA and teach courses for a university that's maybe two steps above a diploma mill. Technically, I'm an "instructor" (a job title that sounds even lamer than "teacher," my day job) but the students call me "professor."

 

[Nerys Myk]

Kor is also called Commander, IIRC.

 

[Red Ranger]

The OP assumes that GR had all this stuff nailed down from the getgo. Evidence would seem to indicate he didn't. "Fleet Captain" probably didnt enter the picture until they were plotting/scripting "The Menangerie" and then promptly vanished when they were done. My guess is they wanted Pike to be higher than Kirk in rank but not an Admiral (which might make him seem too old) or a Commodore like Melendez.

I think I know why they invented the rank of Fleet Captain. They needed to promote him to a flag rank so he could be in the court marshal, but they didn't want to confuse the audience by having him referred to as Commodore half the time and Captain half the time (and potentially conflict with some of their stock footage), so they gave him a rank that could be abbreviated as Captain by the characters.

This sounds like a reasonable, real-world reason why TPTB would want to still refer to Pike as a captain. I'll buy that for a dollar! I still maintain it's a title, not an actual rank. But hey, we all have our own personal "canon."

 

[Timo]

But Trek never suggested alien ranks were so easily translated. The Romulans had ranks of Centurion and Sub-Commander with a rank of Commander that seems to correspond more to Captain or Commodore.

That's the other side of the coin: for Bajorans to have the ranks of "major" or "colonel", their system more or less has to be 1:1 identical to the Federation one - or else we would have to suffer through all sorts of Glinns, Firsts and Navarks and other nonstandard oddities with the Bajorans, too.

I'm really hesistant to accept that a certain rank would have been "removed from use" even if we see no people of that rank during a particular Trek period. Random omissions from drama would occur even if the rank did exist. Similarly, it doesn't seem worth all the effort to accommodate a new, "made-up" rank just because we observe what looks a random occurrence (but could be interpreted as something else, too).

Of course, in theory it could be that the ENT era UESF did eliminate LtCmdr and Lt(jg), that the TMP era eliminated Lt(jg), that the TNG era eliminated Commodore, that the Bajorans eliminated LtCol, and that STXI has eliminated everything between Captain and Vice Admiral so that Pike's insta-promotion to the latter rank would come naturally. In practice, though, that just doesn't seem worth the hassle, or satisfying at any level.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Herbert1]

Memory Alpha has an image of Deputy Director Luther Stone wearing a uniform with four pips and a bar. Is this the rank insignia of a Fleet Captain?

http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/File:Luther_Sloan.jpg

Fandom and online role-playing games have speculated that Fleet Captain is a rank with five pips in the Star Trek: The Next Generation era.

 

[Timo]

That's an awful lot of speculation for something that may or may not have been mentioned in a single episode...

FWIW, it was never suggested that Luther Sloan would outrank Captain Sisko. He had authority over Sisko due to his line of work, so the point was sort of moot. But since Starfleet uniforms in that era seldom feature any sort of decoration save for rank indicators, the underlining of the four pips can well be argued to be a rank-related feature.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[COMTACFLT]

[FONT=Times New Roman]Having served in a naval service myself I recall that the title “Fleet Captain” was used when a senior captain was placed in command of a group of ships on specific task/mission. The title Fleet Captain was used until the US Navy established the Rank of Commodore (1943), a flag officer below a rear admiral. Then in later years the Navy went to Rear Admiral lower half followed by Rear Admiral Upper Half, followed by Vice Admiral and the Top Dog of the Flag Officers was Admiral. When the army went to General of the Army (5 Star) the Navy used the rank Admiral of the Fleet (Fleet Admiral King held that rank during WWII). I would say that the Fleet Captain is an Old School Naval rank/title and it sounds cool when you address someone as Fleet Captain Krunch.[/FONT]

 

[Herbert1]

Unfortunately, I don't believe we will ever know if Fleet Captain is a rank or a posting. Fandom seems divided on this subject. Franz Joseph chose not to devise a sleeve rank stripe for Fleet Captain in the Star Fleet Technical Manual. Star Trek also did not devise insignia or stripes for ratings until Robert Fletcher did so for the uniform redesign in Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan.

 

[Chaos Descending]

[FONT=Times New Roman]Having served in a naval service myself I recall that the title “Fleet Captain” was used when a senior captain was placed in command of a group of ships on specific task/mission. The title Fleet Captain was used until the US Navy established the Rank of Commodore (1943), a flag officer below a rear admiral. Then in later years the Navy went to Rear Admiral lower half followed by Rear Admiral Upper Half, followed by Vice Admiral and the Top Dog of the Flag Officers was Admiral. When the army went to General of the Army (5 Star) the Navy used the rank Admiral of the Fleet (Fleet Admiral King held that rank during WWII). I would say that the Fleet Captain is an Old School Naval rank/title and it sounds cool when you address someone as Fleet Captain Krunch.[/FONT]

Something tells me that you copied and pasted that from somewhere else.

 

[Red Ranger]

There were others wearing the gold shirt color, including Yeoman Smith, but Kirk and Spock both wore the badge with the star device.

True enough: Smith, plus one extra on the bridge and another (the same?) down on the planet. Also, intriguingly, it seems that only Kirk and Spock wore any rank braid with that color...

And Dr. Dehner calls him "Commander" when they first meet, and his personnel file shows his rank as lieutenant commander.

A compound mistake, perhaps? Dehner would know Mitchell through his personnel files, after all.

Although the seventeen-year-old Chekov in STXI lends surprising credence to the idea that Starfleet would have 23-year-old Lieutenant Commanders...

Timo Saloniemi

Regarding how you address a lieutenant commander in everyday speech, it's perfectly OK to call one commander as an abbreviation of sorts. It's the same as calling a rear admiral or vice admiral just admiral, even though they're not four-star full admirals. In formal situations, such as in letters or in a court martial, that's usually when an officer's full, specific rank is used, as in Lieutenant Commander Montgomery Scott, or Lieutenant Commander Data, for example.

 

[COMTACFLT]

Well yeah I opened a word doc typed it up and pasted. Like i stated I've served in a naval service and the term fleet captain is a title not a rank. The commodore rank was used in the NAVY and Coast Guard only for a short time. I think I read a Hortio Hornblower novel and the his captain “ Sir Edward Pellow” was in command of squadron of frigates and was referred to as Fleet Captain. I since I also believe Trek was inspired by The Adventures of Horatio Hornblower’s Royal Naval service. I recall an episode where he gets promoted to Lieutenant Commanding, which may be the beginning of the rank of Lieutenant Commander. Curious note in books, all the lieutenants were gunnery/deck officers and the most senior of the Lieutenants was given the title of 1st Lieutenant and the first officer in succession of command. The term is still use by the USN/USCG, however the 1st LT is in most cases 3rd or 4th in succession. Usually it’s XO followed by the Ship’s navigator then operations officer. Although sometimes the XO is the ship’s navigator or the ops boss is the navigator.
[FONT=Times New Roman] [/FONT]

 

[COMTACFLT]

As far as Lt.Cdr, you can address him as Mr. Krunch or Cdr Krunch or Lt.Cdr Krunch.
Usaully any one below o-5(commander) you can address them as Mr or by their rank. Including the warrant officer, say if you’re a chief warrant officer of the deck rating then you call him or her “Bosun”. Just like a radio operator in the navy is called “sparks” or “sparky”