Was Dukat really evil?

[Inactive-Shapeshifter]

re-watching "the waltz", i must say i kinda think Dukat had some points. I know people will be mad at me, but, sincerely, Sisko says Dukat was evil because of he's actions while under orders from an entire different culture, wheres the prime directive now? I mean, Earth itself had it's share of bloody wars, hell, even Sisko bombarded a planet to stop the Maqui because they ware threatening the peace.
How can he judge Dukat? Cardassia was desperate to get resources at the time they made the occupation. Can we judge the way a entire race behave? Where is the prime directive? Besides, Bajor was NOT a part of the federation by that time. As i remember Picard didn't get involved in the beginning of the Klingon civil-war because of the prime directive, and for that he could have sacrificed Worf's life...

About all that villainy stuff Dukat said, with he's state of mind, i don't think it's fair to judge the man that was hallucinating. Having a Bajoran major at your side telling how bad and disgusting you are can let you really mad. Especially if you used to be a proud man ruling an empire.

So, i dare to ask:

WAS DUKAT REALLY THAT EVIL? Or was he just being what he is, a Cardassian? Would we not do the same at the situation?

By the way: This is a complete objective analysis, we're as the federation here, NOT the Bajorans.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Of course Dukat was evil. His actions proved it.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

To be precise, Sisko never calls Dukat evil. He claims to have experienced evil having spent so much time with Dukat. The difference might seem pedantic, but I think it gets to the core of Dukat's psychology. He is able to rationalize his actions and deflect responsibility. He attempts to reframe the course of events to make it seem as if he was only a passive participant. Indeed, isn't he like Kodos? Isn't he like who sought excuses for their participation in attrocities? "I was told to do it" does not shield one from doing evil. And as per the prime directive: as someone who is involved in strategy and policy, it is necessary for someone like Sisko to size up people in the most succinct manner possible. Evil exists (at least in part) because people like Dukat perform it and rationalize it.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

Yes, he was extremely evil. Not every officer who fought in the Cardassian army was evil, but Dukat clearly was. He thought he was racially superior to the Bajorans and them not groveling at his feet was a personal affront to him. He thought every Bajoran owed him their undying love and obedience and the punishment for not giving it to him was torture and death.

Yes, Earth had it's share of bloody wars. And the dictators who started them were evil. The humans who kidnapped other humans and dragged them across the ocean to use as farm equipment were evil. The fact that there exist evil humans doesn't absolve every member of every other species from being called evil.

If I was a Cardassian citizen and I was assigned to oversee the station on Bajor, and I was raised on Cardassia being taught that I was entitled to conquer other worlds, I may not have been a paragon of reform but I certainly wouldn't have taken Bajorans away from their families to be my concubines nor arbitrarily punished people to instill fear.

 

[borgboy]

It's not enough to say Dukhat can't be judged evil because he's a Cardassian when we see many examples of moral Cardassians.

 

[M.A.C.O.]

Yes Dukat was evil.

 

[Sci]

Anyone who presides over mass murder in a foreign occupation is evil. Gul Dukat presided over the murders of untold numbers of Bajoran citizens; he was a tyrant and a murderer, and was evil. The fact that he is charismatic does not change this.

I know people will be mad at me, but, sincerely, Sisko says Dukat was evil because of he's actions while under orders from an entire different culture, wheres the prime directive now?

The Prime Directive is a matter of foreign policy, not a matter of moral judgment. The P.D. is about saying that the Federation does not have the right to engage in imperialism; it is not about saying that anything a foreign culture does is okay.

I mean, Earth itself had it's share of bloody wars, hell, even Sisko bombarded a planet to stop the Maqui because they ware threatening the peace.

An act undertaken after the Maquis had done the same thing to the Cardassians, with the Maquis being given sufficient warning to evacuate, which they successfully did so and avoided any casualties. Not the same thing as Dukat's actions.

How can he judge Dukat?

"Whataboutism" is not a valid argument in favor of Dukat's actions. Sisko is a morally complicated character, yes. He is sometimes morally compromised. But he is not responsible for hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of murders.

Cardassia was desperate to get resources at the time they made the occupation.

This does not justify imperialism and oppression.

Besides, Bajor was NOT a part of the federation by that time.

This does not mean that someone who engages in the oppression of Bajorans is not a tyrant and evil.

About all that villainy stuff Dukat said, with he's state of mind, i don't think it's fair to judge the man that was hallucinating.

Dukat was evil long before he suffered any mental illness.

So, i dare to ask:

WAS DUKAT REALLY THAT EVIL?

Yes.

 

[Amaris]

I believe he was, but the beautiful thing about Dukat is that he wasn't a conventional "TEH EVIL!" villain. Dukat rationalized his actions, and I think he even saw himself as a savior of Bajorans. There were times when you doubted that he was evil, because you could see this strong display of love and compassion, but then you'd realize it was all self serving, and his other deeds would come to light, and yes, you realized he was truly evil.

Marc Alaimo played him with so much rich complexity. He may be the best, most nuanced villain in any Star Trek series (YMMV of course).

 

[Tosk]

^Agreed. Dukat was evil, but he wasn't just some mustache-twirler.

He was a scheming, manipulative, arrogant bastard. He served his own needs at the expense of others, and rarely thought about the people he was stepping on. He was also charismatic and tenacious. He equally believed in what he was doing no matter if it was in the guise of helping others or if it was enforcing brutal punishment.

He's the villain DS9 deserved. ...One of several.

 

[MacLeod]

Was Dukat evil by human standards yes, was he evil by Cardassian standards perhaps not at least at first.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

As far as I'm concerned, what eventually happens to Cardassia is as much Dukat's fault as it was the Dominion's.

 

[kkt]

As far as I'm concerned, what eventually happens to Cardassia is as much Dukat's fault as it was the Dominion's.

Well, sure. Dukat invited the Dominion in. One could argue that betraying Cardassia to the Dominion was evil, not only according to human/Federation standards, but also evil according to Cardassian standards.

 

[Inactive-Shapeshifter]

You guys have some really good points here, i do believe now, he was evil, the thing for me is, most cardassians ware like that, it was a general idea of the cardassians to be immoral and agressive, so, by cardassians standards perhaps Dukat, was, in fact, doing a great service for cardassia. The cardassians could have a complete different moral code. What right do we have to say ours is better?

About Sisko, thing is i just think it was kinda hypocrisy of his part to say that Dukat was evil... I mean... We all know that if was Picard there he would end the episode with something like: "poor soul... he was dominated by aggressiveness and desire for power. We must take care to not let that monster that is inside of us all get free like it did with that man." That would be more appropriated, in my humble opinion.

But Sisko just got over it like if he was the perfect man to judge what is evil. Of course, he was the emissary, but still... I think it was kind of selfish.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

No, 'most Cardassians' were not like Dukat. He was a unique individual. You can't condemn the entire race because of him. There have been many instances of honorable and good Cardassians - Macet, Marritza, Damar (in the end), hell even Garak turned out to be a decent guy.

 

[Inactive-Shapeshifter]

No, 'most Cardassians' were not like Dukat. He was a unique individual. You can't condemn the entire race because of him. There have been many instances of honorable and good Cardassians - Macet, Marritza, Damar (in the end), hell even Garak turned out to be a decent guy.

Sure, but you must also remember cardassians like the one that interrogated Picard, assuming what he says to him about the cardassian people is truth, then cardassia is, indeed a military organization were children are educated to hate the enemys of the empire and even suppose to find torture a normal thing wen on enemy. And, there is the fact also, of the cardassians trails say that all suspects are guilty. Now, we can't deny that is evil, can we? If that is the environment Dukat grow up on since a kid, i'm not sure we can blame him.

 

[Enterprise1981]

I would say the answer is framed in understanding cultural/moral relativism (yes, one of those commonly used snarl words). Even the proponents of modern cultural relativism still acknowledge that there are certain actions that are undeniably evil no matter who is doing them and no matter the "cultural norms" they are following. Despite Dukat's attempts to explain away his actions during the Occupation, Sisko can only see his eye-for-an-eye and tooth-for-a-tooth style of justice as "truly evil".

As we through the later runs of the series, Dukat was more concerned with personal glory rather than glory for his people. The Dominion and Pah-Wraiths were merely a means to an end. If you had him and Gul Darhe'el (someone who also rigidly embraced Cardassian exceptionalism) conspiring together, one would be Londo Mollari (genuinely seeking glory for his people) while the other would be Lord Refa (personal glory).

So, in answer to the question of the Prime Directive, the Federation's highest law certainly prohibits forcibly remaking the culture of an alien world, but that still should not impede Sisko from having an opinion of Dukat that he does.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

The Cardassian justice system was corrupt, yes. Their government was a ruthless military dictatorship. Dukat, personally, was a brutal and sadistic dictator. All true. But the entirety of the Cardassian people can't be labelled like that.

For every Dukat, there's a Tekeny Ghemor. For every Gul Madred, there's a Marritza.

 

[Inactive-Shapeshifter]

The Cardassian justice system was corrupt, yes. Their government was a ruthless military dictatorship. Dukat, personally, was a brutal and sadistic dictator. All true. But the entirety of the Cardassian people can't be labelled like that.

For every Dukat, there's a Tekeny Ghemor. For every Gul Madred, there's a Marritza.

Don't take me wrong, i don't intend to judge the entire race, even because i LOVE cardassians But what im saying is, if Dukat was educated since a kid to destroy the enemys of the empire, if he was educated in a military environment, if he had the education to be ruthless and "evil" by our standards, would that be his fault? Besides, even Ghemor was prove to be responsible for the death of bajorans, so, i take that if the "good" cardassians ware already responsible for some massacres, what can we say of the "normal", "patriotism" cardassian?

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

if Dukat was educated since a kid to destroy the enemys of the empire, if he was educated in a military environment, if he had the education to be ruthless and "evil" by our standards, would that be his fault?

Yes, because he still had the choice to do what he did.

 

[Amaris]

if Dukat was educated since a kid to destroy the enemys of the empire, if he was educated in a military environment, if he had the education to be ruthless and "evil" by our standards, would that be his fault?

Yes, because he still had the choice to do what he did.

Yes, this. Dukat knew what was right and wrong, which is why he lionized his "rights", and rationalized his "wrongs".