Was Chakotay a stereotype?

[Guy Gardener]

Dear god woman can you read?

THE SPANISH!

FROM SPAIN!

That's the only people I said weren't Indians.

Because they're Spanish.

FROM SPAIN!

Dear God Man! Do you understand?! Can you read?!

How do you determine which people, 500 years after the Spanish invaded, and after 500 years of intermarriage, are indigenous and which aren't? Come on! You can tell me what the secret is!

The story is no different in North America than in South America. Just different white invaders.

From you:

nor are their descendants as indigenous as they claim they are after ONLY 500 years

Your argument is 5 hundred years of interbreeding?

the Merchant of freaking Venice?

Apart from the mass serial rape in the beginning, until recently, such crossovers would be rare, a boink sure, but marriage ratified by church and state?

No one can prove what happened 500 years ago so it's a question of personal preference that a seeming Latino may chose to claim that he has a little Incan blood in him or her, but really with no obvious proof, isn't he or she just a little bit of poseur if they know there's no proof?

Alternatively I'm assuming (yes I'm making an ass of you and me.) that most of the Latino's living in South America don't think of themselves as Indians, don't want to be Indians or even are not Indians.

Besides, after the massrape that intertwined the races and pacified a few not so sturdy civilizations, Spain flat out spent 300 years sending still thousands upon thousands of more non-rapists to colonize as much of America as they could.

So yes, it's pretty obvious because of history that most South American Indians have Latino or Caucasian blood in them, be it obvious or not, but the other way around as suggested above is not so endemic because racism used to keep everyone separated.

 

[teya]

Dear god woman can you read?

THE SPANISH!

FROM SPAIN!

That's the only people I said weren't Indians.

Because they're Spanish.

FROM SPAIN!

Dear God Man! Do you understand?! Can you read?!

How do you determine which people, 500 years after the Spanish invaded, and after 500 years of intermarriage, are indigenous and which aren't? Come on! You can tell me what the secret is!

The story is no different in North America than in South America. Just different white invaders.

From you:

nor are their descendants as indigenous as they claim they are after ONLY 500 years

Your argument is 5 hundred years of interbreeding?

the Merchant of freaking Venice?

Apart from the mass serial rape in the beginning, until recently, such crossovers would be rare, a boink sure, but marriage ratified by church and state?

No one can prove what happened 500 years ago so it's a question of personal preference that a seeming Latino may chose to claim that he has a little Incan blood in him or her, but really with no obvious proof, isn't he or she just a little bit of poseur if they know there's no proof?

Alternatively I'm assuming (yes I'm making an ass of you and me.) that most of the Latino's living in South America don't think of themselves as Indians, don't want to be Indians or even are not Indians.

Besides, after the massrape that intertwined the races and pacified a few not so sturdy civilizations, Spain flat out spent 300 years sending still thousands upon thousands of more non-rapists to colonize as much of America as they could.

So yes, it's pretty obvious because of history that most South American Indians have Latino or Caucasian blood in them, be it obvious or not, but the other way around as suggested above is not so endemic because racism used to keep everyone separated.

I have a suggestion.

How about you do some reading on the demographics of Mexico, Central & South America, and then get back to me? You might have to do quite a bit of research because each country has a different history & their racial politics vary.

But, right now, you're ignorant on the subject & I'm not pursuing this further.

If you'd like to keep proclaiming who's an Indian and who isn't, be my guest. You still haven't explained what gives you the right.

Do you treat your own indigenous with the same contempt?

 

[Guy Gardener]

Only when they're really Australian.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

Last time I looked the people flow was going the other direction.

 

[Guy Gardener]

This is a question of semantics.

These are the terms from the 19th century to determine ethnicity in Mexico.

Indios (full blooded natives)

Criollo (full European born in Americas)

Mulato (Spanish and African),

mestizo (Spanish and native),

Negro (full African),

Peninsulare (full Spanish born in Spain).

Obviously I was being too vague by saying that the Spanish from Spain were not Indians when I should have said that the Criollo were not Indians, or whatever the modern day equivalent of that word might be, since it's probably most certainly offensive now.

I never meant the Spanish with a little bit of Indian blood are not Indians, I clearly meant and said that the Spanish with no Indian blood are not Indians, and that was pretty damn obvious and you still decided to bully me as usual. How was I to know that there are no Spanish without Indian blood in South America any more? It's not a very publicized genocide.

I looked at the numbers on wikipedia and google, and it seems that the intermarrying and interbreeding was quite righteous and entrenched, and almost everyone is obviously to any one but me, to be a mixture of Spanish and Indian and it would be quite difficult to find a Criollo whose parents hadn't just arrived by plane from Spain in the last 20 years.

I'm sorry. I apologise. I was wrong and you were right about the interbreeding.

But you were still being obstinate for no reason about the Criollos.

 

[teya]

Thanks for your gracious reply.

It's not really a matter of semantics, though. It's a matter of identity. Racial minorities have the right to self-identify.

I have a friend who has red hair & green eyes & she's just as Cherokee as her brown-eyed, black-haired sister.

We get patients in the ED from southern Mexico who speak no English or Spanish. They're not full-bloods, but it would be pretty hard to argue that they're not Indian when the only language they speak is Mayan...

 

[BORU]

You'll have to forgive me if my memory is faulty, raising two small kids at my age can do that to you and it has been a while since I saw this series.

After a while Chakotay stopped mentioning spirits at all, he said God or my God quite a lot and not spirits as so many fan fics seem to write. Janeway was a woman of science who did not put much stock in formal religion it appears but she had her moments of faith in her own way. I don't think either ones faith was based on ethnicity but on the basic makeup of their character.

Chuckles character may have started out with good intentions at being written as Indian but the writers really didn’t do their homework, which in the age of computers should have been a piece of cake, beyond the “Indian for all seasons.” I am however immensely thankful they didn’t go too much Hollywood and stick a full feathered headdress on him and have him do a lot of stoic “Ugg, shields at 30%, Captain Kemosabee...” I swear to CHRIST there couldn’t have been that many damn feathers in the whole US for the amount of headdresses in the movies. Plus who the hell did any research on Crazy Horse? The guy never, ever, ever wore a headdress! Still not Voyager related so sorry for off topic rant.

I don’t put much Indian in the Angry warrior tale either other than a man trying to tell a woman how he felt cloaked in story as to give them both an out. It was sweet but I’m gonna go with if he had pulled out a flute and played a courting song I might have been more impressed that they were at least trying. Let’s see his quarters had some décor, he did sand paintings and he did some mystical head trip at times but that all got fewer and far between as the seasons went on. By the end viewers who would have just tuned in would not have even known he was Indian.

In short, they missed the boat, TNG did it a wee bit better and they could have built on that but they slipped up and didn’t bother to correct it. In time neither did Chakotay, although he was at the mercy of the writers, and Beltran who may indeed have indigenous blood but really didn’t have a say or didn’t press,

And Teya, I took my two granddaughters to the Pow Wow and while the oldest jumped right in the circle to dance the little one was quite upset and proclaimed loudly she wasn’t dancing because “Where are all the white Indians like me?” Now she doesn’t mean white as in skin color she means white as in blonde hair. She is black eyed and very tanned but has beautiful golden blonde hair. Course at four it’s hard to explain that Indians come in all shapes, sizes and colors and not everyone looks like her dad or sister. I laughed later after I got over the initial embarrassment but it was not an easy answer for her.

 

[Deckerd]

I agree the character was squandered and this is unpardonable by the writers. However, since all the characters are stereotypical in one way or another, it seems a bit unfair to single one out.

As to the cultural convo going on here; just imagine how Scots feel about ST. She canny take it, Captin.

 

[BORU]

I agree the character was squandered and this is unpardonable by the writers. However, since all the characters are stereotypical in one way or another, it seems a bit unfair to single one out.

As to the cultural convo going on here; just imagine how Scots feel about ST. She canny take it, Captin.

True, true - don't even get me started on Fair Haven or that TNG episode were they pick up the "Irish". Good LORD did they use any brain cells to come up with those episodes?

If Chuckles is sterotypical of anything it was Voyager regulating him and a couple other male characters to background noise. They become nada other than "Shields up Captain." He kinda of became Voyager's answer to Sulu in my opinion.

 

[teya]

I am however immensely thankful they didn’t go too much Hollywood and stick a full feathered headdress on him and have him do a lot of stoic “Ugg, shields at 30%, Captain Kemosabee...” I swear to CHRIST there couldn’t have been that many damn feathers in the whole US for the amount of headdresses in the movies.

A headdress is not simply a construction of Hollywood.

Here's Sen. Ben Nighthorse Campbell (who is also a Cheyenne chief) introducing a bill on the floor of the Senate on the day the American Indian Museum was opened.

Last thing I need round these parts is yet another European patiently explaining my culture to me.

My nation also uses full headdresses as ceremonial wear.

 

[Guy Gardener]

I spent some years pronouncing Cheyenne as Chenny because it was just a word in a book.

 

[teya]

After a while Chakotay stopped mentioning spirits at all, he said God or my God quite a lot and not spirits as so many fan fics seem to write.

That's a favorite in J/C fanfic. Haven't seen it used anywhere else, and he certainly never said it on the show. No idea why J/Cers started going with that. Perhaps they believe Indians don't worship gods.

Or something.

Chuckles character may have started out with good intentions at being written as Indian but the writers really didn’t do their homework, which in the age of computers should have been a piece of cake, beyond the “Indian for all seasons.”

The internet was not what it is now when Voyager first aired. Still, Jeri Taylor obviously went to maya.net, because the myth she told in "Pathways" was lifted word for word from that site. Plagiarism! St Jeri of Taylor!

However, if they wanted to go the Maya route, she didn't need to go online. There are thousands of Maya living in Los Angeles. They are our gardeners and maids and nannies. St Jeri of Taylor should speak to her hired help occasionally.

It was sweet but I’m gonna go with if he had pulled out a flute and played a courting song I might have been more impressed that they were at least trying.

I would've shot my TV.

I would've liked some drums.

Let’s see his quarters had some décor, he did sand paintings and he did some mystical head trip at times but that all got fewer and far between as the seasons went on. He had a medicine wheel, he didn't clock Seven upside the head when she referred to the Great Spirit, he yammered on occasion about how Indians are so gentle to the land...

Plenty stereotypes there.

There were two things in the whole series that struck me as Indian.

1) In the pilot when Tom referred to some hokey Indian thing about Chakotay's life belonging to Tom, Chakotay said, "Wrong tribe."

2) He went out in a shuttlecraft for rituals. Everyone has his or her place in nature where they are most at home. Mine is at the top of a mountain in NY state. It makes sense that Chakotay's--drawn as he was to leave his home and join Starfleet--was in space.

Beltran who may indeed have indigenous blood but really didn’t have a say or didn’t press,

Beltran commented in an interview that TPTB had asked him about his own heritage. He pointed out that many Mexican-Americans--himself included--had no clue. He suggested Maya, but couldn't help further.

So St Jeri of Taylor went to mayanet. The rest is history.

 

[BORU]

I am however immensely thankful they didn’t go too much Hollywood and stick a full feathered headdress on him and have him do a lot of stoic “Ugg, shields at 30%, Captain Kemosabee...” I swear to CHRIST there couldn’t have been that many damn feathers in the whole US for the amount of headdresses in the movies.

A headdress is not simply a construction of Hollywood.

Here's Sen. Ben Nighthorse Campbell (who is also a Cheyenne chief) introducing a bill on the floor of the Senate on the day the American Indian Museum was opened.

Last thing I need round these parts is yet another European patiently explaining my culture to me.

My nation also uses full headdresses as ceremonial wear.

I had the pleasure of hearing Sen. Campbell’s speech on the Mall at the opening of the NMAI also the honor of touring the NMAI prior to it's opening, course it was the wee hours of the morning but it was something I'll never forget. I spent a week in awe of the history, the entertainment and the different people willing to share their oral history. It was a honor to be there not only as someone with Indian ancestry but as a American citizen.

And while I’m certain some ancestors did indeed arrive on these shores by way of Erin/England, a good portion were already here and had been for centuries therefore my family hasn't been European for quite some time.

My granddaughters are registered members of the Lumbee tribe, their father’s doing not mine. I do not feel the need to prove their Cherokee and Pamunkey blood. I do not know my blood quantum and even if I did it would mean squat to me, I will go by family history, mostly oral as it wasn’t really popular at the time to claim Indian blood. We are what we are, the sum of all that came before and I’m good with that.

In reference to the headdress, when it is overused in the media it takes away from the honor and history that should be the right of those who had the right to wear one. Not because some photographer thought it look good in the shot and would sell more newspapers or the cartoons artist thought it was funny or it looked good on film with it blowing in the wind. it wasn't factual nor is it cool for comic relief.

Back to topic at hand...

Personally I think Chuckles was more of a wind instrument kinda guy but given that he had to deal with Janeway, in his case I would have also been looking for something to bang and not in a good way. Bring on the drum therapy.

 

[Deckerd]

Last thing I need round these parts is yet another European patiently explaining my culture to me.

Do you mean BORU?

 

[teya]

Last thing I need round these parts is yet another European patiently explaining my culture to me.

Do you mean BORU?

No, I mean the folks from Europe who explain what a "Red Indian" is, what we look like (I never fit the stereotype, nor do most from my nation), how we're the most ecological & spiritual on the planet (cue New Age soundtrack), how the lack of a tribe isn't a problem for them because they're enlightened (unlike Indians who view their tribal identity as part of their individual identity).

Chakotay could have been an inspiration in much the way Uhura was in the 60s. But TPTB chose to make him an Indian recognizeable to white folks, but didn't really care if he was recognizeable as an Indian to Indians.

 

[teya]

And while I’m certain some ancestors did indeed arrive on these shores by way of Erin/England, a good portion were already here and had been for centuries therefore my family hasn't been European for quite some time.

Sorry I wasn't clear.

I wasn't referring to you, but to those who would jump on what you said and run with it, assuming that the headdress is a Hollywood construct only.

 

[jpch]

Well i dunno if stereotypical is right...but he had decent character development not the most popular character anyway.

He was always gonna be second to Janeway because they needed a strong female capatain he was no gonna be expressive or as dominating as people thought.
but i think the fact that hes culture was ruined,the way they expressed it in the show was limited,but i wouldn't think an Indian episode would have made a difference.

 

[teya]

Well i dunno if stereotypical is right...but he had decent character development not the most popular character anyway.

He was always gonna be second to Janeway because they needed a strong female capatain he was no gonna be expressive or as dominating as people thought.
but i think the fact that hes culture was ruined,the way they expressed it in the show was limited,but i wouldn't think an Indian episode would have made a difference.

They had an "Indian episode." It was "Tattoo."

It was a disgusting New Age mess.

 

[jpch]

Well i dunno if stereotypical is right...but he had decent character development not the most popular character anyway.

He was always gonna be second to Janeway because they needed a strong female capatain he was no gonna be expressive or as dominating as people thought.
but i think the fact that hes culture was ruined,the way they expressed it in the show was limited,but i wouldn't think an Indian episode would have made a difference.

They had an "Indian episode." It was "Tattoo."

It was a disgusting New Age mess.

I never enjoyed that episode...

 

[Dale Sams]

And while I’m certain some ancestors did indeed arrive on these shores by way of Erin/England, a good portion were already here and had been for centuries therefore my family hasn't been European for quite some time.

Sorry I wasn't clear.

I wasn't referring to you, but to those who would jump on what you said and run with it, assuming that the headdress is a Hollywood construct only.

This Creek/Cherokee gives Teya a high-five.

I recently saw "The Fight".... "Captain, permission to go on a vison quest." My eyes rolled right out of my head.

Though I have to admit, if Voyager had a Ferengi crewmember, and he said "Captain, permission to swindle the aliens out of their money." I would laugh.

Edit: If Chakotay were anything but an Indian, I would actually praise the production crew. I had no problem with Bajoran spirituality, even if they did try and hide it behind wormhole aliens.