Was Captain Maxwell right?

[Hermiod]

^Well yeah, but given Sisko was pretty much running the war effort, you'd think they'd tell him these things.

I think the speed of events is key here. Without the three year cold war first, Starfleet may not have been so prepared. What if they didn't know who the Founders were ? The Founders blew a significant advantage by revealing themselves. With that advantage, they could have launched a co-ordinated attack on key installations throughout the Federation and the Klingon Empire.

We know from what really happened that Starfleet was having trouble with ship production and manpower, that disadvantage could have been worsened if suddenly multiple shipyards are sabotaged or even destroyed by Changeling infiltrators.

Of course, ultimately they always said getting Odo back was worth losing the entire Alpha Quadrant.

 

[Sci]

Obviously, he was a little too extreme,

A "little" too extreme? The man tried to start a war because of his suspicion, unconfirmed by definitive evidence, that the Cardassians were building up, and he did so against the will of the legitimate, democratically-elected government of the Federation. If a rogue officer of the United States Navy were to try to start a war with Russia or Iran over a similar such suspicion, he'd be found guilty of treason.

but should the Federation Council have listened to Maxwell?

What makes you think that the Federation President and Starfleet Command weren't aware of the Cardassian building up but had decided to monitor it, possibly engage in covert counter-operations, and avoid all-out hostilities? That's exactly the problem with what Maxwell did -- he put himself above the law and didn't stop to consider the wider political implications of his actions.

It could have made the war with the Dominion much shorter and less costly.

Or it could have prevented the Cardassian Union from ever withdrawing from Bajor, condemning an ancient society to slavery and oppression. Or maybe it wouldn't have led to that, but would have hastened the Union's decision to allow itself to be annexed by the Dominion, giving the Founders years and years more time to build up an industrial and resource base in the Alpha Quadrant, thereby ensuring a Dominion victory and the complete conquest of the United Federation of Planets and Klingon Empire.

It also would have negated the creation of the Maquis and the resulting conflicts they caused.

Or maybe it would have hastened their creation if the Federation had felt the need to try to placate the Cardassians after his little stunt, thus leading to the loss of even more lives. Maybe the Maquis would have evolved into a full-blown interstellar state in their own right and prompted a civil war within the Federation.

But would it have been worth it?

It is neither his job nor his right to make that determination. He is an officer in the Federation Starfleet, not the Federation President and not a Federation Councillor. His job is to serve his government, not to dictate Federation policy.

 

[Timo]

It is neither his job nor his right to make that determination. He is an officer in the Federation Starfleet, not the Federation President and not a Federation Councillor. His job is to serve his government, not to dictate Federation policy.

OTOH, he might well see it as his moral duty to say "screw my job!" and get the right thing done. Picard did that often enough, typically with nary a consequence to his career. Picking a fight with the technologically superior Son'a was just the last in a long chain of acts of similar (seeming) rebellion, such as getting Starfleet involved in the Klingon civil war, escorting Klingon warships into the Romulan Neutral Zone, or barnstorming the Zone and destroying Iconia. Ultimately these acts served Federation interests even when going well beyond Picard's mandate as a Starfleet officer.

Would the UFP really be worse off for having its hand forced by a madman once more? Sweeping the floor with Cardassians is something Starfleet supposedly would have been ready to do if not for temporarily being "spread too thin", as the expository dialogue in "The Wounded" suggests. Many declared UFP ideals would triumph in the neighborhood with the scaly space nazis gone. The people who always wanted to see that happen would finally have to confront the people who think the UFP mustn't forcibly do good, and a lot of air would be cleared of hypocrisy.

It's not as if there were a precedent for the Federation launching a war "legitimately". Hell, perhaps they have finally made war of aggression an unambiguously criminal act. Yet somehow the Feds seem to be in constant war with somebody; there must be a menagerie of excuses, and "being forced into it by a madman in our own ranks" can't be all that extreme or exceptional.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Hermiod]

I should have pointed this out in my hypothetical scenario, but the Borg attack did leave Starfleet under strength. Look at the fleet they sent to the Romulan/Klingon border, there was at least one Constellation-class ship and many of the newer ships didn't even have proper crews.

 

[Timo]

One should note, though, that the fleet was speficially intended not to provoke the Romulans. Moreover, it was merely what a single starbase and its immediate vicinity had to offer within the time allotted. One would expect Starfleet's more modern and potent assets to always be "spread thin" in deep space exploration duty, there being a mandatory waiting period before these could be again compacted into a proper warfleet. A starbase would by default have mostly broken-down ships present.

It's difficult to see how the Borg attack could have seriously harmed Starfleet, when only 39 ships were lost, and those represented what could be summoned to Earth within a couple of days. And the ships there were the same sort of mixture of museum pieces and modern technology as the "Redemption" blockade fleet...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Hermiod]

I wonder if a remastered version of TNG would change that seeing as the composition of those fleets was as much a budgetary decision as anything else.

That said, we saw Excelsiors and Mirandas used on DS9's fleet battle sequences well after they switched to CG.

 

[HRHTheKING]

Yes he was right.

It showed how out of touch the Federation bureaucrats actually were.

And also backed up the Maquis later when they argued that the Cardies were violating the treaty and attacking them.

Cardies cannot be trusted.

 

[Timo]

Or, for that matter, humans.

That is, if Maxwell is an example to go by.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[HRHTheKING]

I don't think he is a bad example.

 

[Timo]

Agreed - which sort of proves the point. When humans at their best (even Picard insists Maxwell is one of the best) are like that, I'd rather trust a Breen...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Hermiod]

Agreed - which sort of proves the point. When humans at their best (even Picard insists Maxwell is one of the best) are like that, I'd rather trust a Breen...

Timo Saloniemi

Whoah, at least we don't pretend Earth is a frozen wasteland and walk around in environment suits when it's clearly not.

 

[RobertScorpio]

Agreed - which sort of proves the point. When humans at their best (even Picard insists Maxwell is one of the best) are like that, I'd rather trust a Breen...

Timo Saloniemi

Again, I do not understand that kind of logic. Earthings, from the time Earth was united, and even before (yes, including the Holocaust and Slavery) never killed on a galactic scale as savage and as barbaric as the Klingons..Borg...Jem-Hedar...HurQ..(i could go on)

Heck, the Breen and Jem Hedar MURDERED over 800 million Cardassians in two days which is by far brutal and savage than humans have ever been, if you take this in account as if TREKs future came true...

Rob
Scorpio

 

[AlanC9]

Sweeping the floor with Cardassians is something Starfleet supposedly would have been ready to do if not for temporarily being "spread too thin", as the expository dialogue in "The Wounded" suggests. Many declared UFP ideals would triumph in the neighborhood with the scaly space nazis gone..

Really? You sure it wouldn't turn out like the occupation of Iraq?