Was Bashir guilty of sexual harassment in season 1 with Dax?

[MadeIndescribable]

And I want to make clear that this is the exact problem I have here - that views on dating can so easily be warped.

Now can we get back to the issue of the law too easily labeling people as sexual predators?

So, the way I see it, basically these two sentences have done more for you than anything else you've posted. I finally get where your argument is coming from, even though I still find it rather flawed. It very much sounded to me like you were actually advocating the type of "dating" that you were apparently accusing the law of seeing in every instance.
Secondly, I don't think I can add anything that isn't stated here:

My reaction to your post:
First I remembered how hard it is for victims to get anybody to even listen to them. Then I remembered how much victim-blaming there is still going on in these cases. Then I remembered how hard it is for victims to get this stuff persecuted. And then I remembered how many sexual predators get away with their crimes.

My reply to your post:
Which world do you live in?

And as an addendum you'll also get:
Tell me again how a guy got into legal trouble for smiling at a woman. Or for trying to chat her up and then retreating when she told him she's not interested.*



* You're welcome to swap genders around here.

 

[Nakita Akita]

Can I ask what you mean by this as well? Kinda sounds like your saying it's a mans duty to pester women...

Somebody has to initiate something.
Usually it is the male.
If nobody is allowed to ask another person out, or say stuff that might be construed as sexual, how does anything ever get initiated?

 

[MadeIndescribable]

Well if both Peole are not allowed to ask the other one out, in the end nothing will happen.
Everyone remains and dies virgins, no more humans.....☹

I'm not saying people aren't allowed to ask people out, I'm saying that people should take no for an answer, and move on.

the catch is to make the woman want to be pursued.

No, the "catch" is to respect a woman when she says no.

You know I think all this feminist nonsense about all relationships being essentially rape will lead to the extinction of the human race if the feminist movement isn't forcibly suppressed soon.

Feminism is about equality. Anyone claiming that all relationships are rape isn't a feminist.

 

[{ Emilia }]

If sexual reproduction didn't exist the human species wouldn't survive. And believe it or not men do pursue women-the catch is to make the woman want to be pursued.

"pursue"
"make the woman want"

I keep seeing these silly hunting and tricking metaphors. It's not about making the woman want something. It's about not being an asshole and then maybe, if she's interested, the woman may "want" something. You don't have to "make her want it". It's her own agency that makes her want something.

In certain contexts, yes. If X tries that on a number of people (out of whom some may actually be interested, but nobody cares about them) and one raises the issue afterwards, the multiple tries may sadly count negatively for character assessment even when all of them went the way you describe.

So your answer to my question "You really think trying to chat somebody up in the appropriate context leads to "all hell breaking loose" even if you stop after they tell you that they're not interested?" is "No", really.

You claimed people get in trouble for smiling at a woman, remember?
Nothing you said has convinced me that somebody who respectfully approaches another person in an appropriate context in a non-aggressive way can get in trouble if they retreat after the person says "I'm not interested".

You keep moving the goalposts. But that does not make your original claim any less asinine.

It's shockingly easy to not get in trouble. Treat people with respect, most importantly respect their agency and consider context. It's not nearly as complex as it sounds. You could also call it: "Don't be an arse."

 

[{ Emilia }]

Somebody has to initiate something.
Usually it is the male.
If nobody is allowed to ask another person out, or say stuff that might be construed as sexual, how does anything ever get initiated?

Nobody here ever claimed that it's not allowed to ask another person out.
We're just saying context matters and being respectful matters.
No-brainer, really. I love flirting.

 

[Timo]

I feel I must extend an apology here over basically all my TrekBBS typing - the one thing I profoundly loathe is a fear of words, also often known as the abuse of words. And courts and bulletin boards alike engage in that. What I in turn wish to practice a lot is seeing things from another viewpoint. And here I can all too easily slip into the trousers (or skirts) of people using the exact polemic language above, but for real.

Nothing you said has convinced me that somebody who respectfully approaches another person in an appropriate context in a non-aggressive way can get in trouble if they retreat after the person says "I'm not interested".

I'm not too worried about that. But if you say "Nothing AT ALL will convincve me that, etc.", then you're a disgusting idiot, because that does happen a lot.

No, it's not because of what happened or did not happen. It's because the dating issue itself is covered in such stigmatic goo that the "one word against another" thing is automatically biased out of all proportion if and when it goes to court.

And you seem to think that this is an issue that doesn't touch nice guys/gals. The opposite is true - this particular issue is the one where nice guys/gals are the victims. If they weren't nice, then it would be that other issue, which is a different issue altogether.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[CorporalCaptain]

I've been asked out by women on multiple occasions, and not just in this millennium. Women pursue men all the time, and have all through history.

Full disclosure: I've asked women out, too.

And getting prosecuted for smiling? What is this, the planet Vulcan?

 

[{ Emilia }]

I'm not too worried about that. But if you say "Nothing AT ALL will convincve me that, etc.", then you're a disgusting idiot, because that does happen a lot.

Somebody getting into legal trouble for respectfully approaching another person in an appropriate context in a non-aggressive way and retreating once the person says they're not interested is... happening a lot?

Can't tell if serious.

It's because the dating issue itself is covered in such stigmatic goo that the "one word against another" thing is automatically biased out of all proportion if and when it goes to court.

Yeah, and both in the case of harassment and rape it's usually slanted in favor of the perpetrator. Which is why so many are getting away with what they've done.

 

[Garak]

 

[Voth commando1]

"pursue"
"make the woman want"

I keep seeing these silly hunting and tricking metaphors. It's not about making the woman want something. It's about not being an asshole and then maybe, if she's interested, the woman may "want" something. You don't have to "make her want it". It's her own agency that makes her want something.



So your answer to my question "You really think trying to chat somebody up in the appropriate context leads to "all hell breaking loose" even if you stop after they tell you that they're not interested?" is "No", really.

You claimed people get in trouble for smiling at a woman, remember?
Nothing you said has convinced me that somebody who respectfully approaches another person in an appropriate context in a non-aggressive way can get in trouble if they retreat after the person says "I'm not interested".

You keep moving the goalposts. But that does not make your original claim any less asinine.

It's shockingly easy to not get in trouble. Treat people with respect, most importantly respect their agency and consider context. It's not nearly as complex as it sounds. You could also call it: "Don't be an arse."

Okay you probably think biology is totally a social construct and all women snow removal teams(that don't work by the way) are totally awesome.

To be honest the whole feminist movement is a problem it's a cancer, it's bad for women, children, men and the health of civilization itself.

It needs to be forcibly removed from western society lest it metastatize and kill us all.

 

[CorporalClegg]

No.

 

[MadeIndescribable]

To be honest the whole feminist movement is a problem it's a cancer, it's bad for women, children, men and the health of civilization itself.

It needs to be forcibly removed from western society lest it metastatize and kill us all.

I think you're confusing "feminism" with "the patriarchy".

 

[CorporalClegg]

Also...

Feminism: it's not what you think it is.

 

[{ Emilia }]

To be honest the whole feminist movement is a problem it's a cancer, it's bad for women, children, men and the health of civilization itself.

It needs to be forcibly removed from western society lest it metastatize and kill us all.

I always find it fascinating to see how much angst and anger it causes in some men when they're faced with the astonishing concept that women are human beings, too.
There should be a word for this: The white man's fear of losing his privilege. Male fragility truly is a sight to behold.

I suppose it's made even worse by the fact that they're losing more and more allies because so many men are awesome and realize that feminism is a good thing that benefits us all.

 

[MadeIndescribable]

There should be a word for this: The white man's fear of losing his privilege.

Justice?

 

[sojourner]

There should be a word for this: The white man's fear of losing his privilege.

Man+anxiety= manxiety?

 

[Robert Maxwell]

You know I think all this feminist nonsense about all relationships being essentially rape will lead to the extinction of the human race if the feminist movement isn't forcibly suppressed soon.

Okay you probably think biology is totally a social construct and all women snow removal teams(that don't work by the way) are totally awesome.

To be honest the whole feminist movement is a problem it's a cancer, it's bad for women, children, men and the health of civilization itself.

It needs to be forcibly removed from western society lest it metastatize and kill us all.

Feminism has a lot of catching up to do if it's gonna cause as much mayhem and death as misogyny.

Especially since feminism is about equality and reducing violence, not creating more.

Dunno where you got such whack ideas.

Somebody has to initiate something.
Usually it is the male.
If nobody is allowed to ask another person out, or say stuff that might be construed as sexual, how does anything ever get initiated?

I hope it's been made clear by now that "initiating" is not the issue, but people (usually men) who refuse to take "no" for an answer.

You ask, she says "no," you accept it and move on. That's life.

Man+anxiety= manxiety?

"Male fragility" works.

 

[marlboro]

This board sucks. Jesus Christ, I just want to read about Star Trek for fucks sake.

 

[Robert Maxwell]

This board sucks. Jesus Christ, I just want to read about Star Trek for fucks sake.

Yeah, sucks when a forum gets invaded by people who need to go back to TheRedPill.

 

[Garak]

Okay you probably think biology is totally a social construct and all women snow removal teams(that don't work by the way) are totally awesome.

To be honest the whole feminist movement is a problem it's a cancer, it's bad for women, children, men and the health of civilization itself.

It needs to be forcibly removed from western society lest it metastatize and kill us all.

How are you going to find the time to eradicate feminism when you have so many video games to play?

All those tasty snacks your mom makes aren't going to eat themselves, right?

Then there's the fact you'll likely have to talk to a girl if you did carry through with it - that's some heavy shit for beginners!

I mean what if you actually try to get rid of feminism but get short of breath after taking too many steps (8) and pass out?

I don't think you've thought this through champ.