Was anyone really surprised by the Valeris revelation?

[Aldo]

To be honest I was a bit surprised to find out it was Valeris. Of course when I watched TUC I hadn't quite been into Trek as long as some of you have so I didn't connect the fact that she was a new character to her being the traitor like some of you did.

 

[sonak]

After all their experiences with the Klingons in the last movies it's not out of character in my opinion.

um, why does having some encounters with them turn into expressions of racial hostility?

You didn't find it jarring having characters suddenly saying things like "Klingon bitch" or expressing disgust at table manners, etc.?

It was the writer making points without caring that the characters had never expressed sentiments like this before.


(Kirk says "Klingon bastards" in TSFS, but only in the heat of the moment of learning his son was killed, and he never expresses anything like it again in that movie or TFF)

I recall Kirk referred to them again as "Klingon bastards" in Star Trek V (ironically, just before he's rescued by them).

But I think a few years passed between Star Trek V and Star Trek VI. Something really bad could happened during that time to really sour attitudes towards the Klingons.

There was a novel that had a Klingon attack just before the events of TUC. Had that happened in the movie it would have made more sense.

 

[Therin of Andor]

So with Valeris it was too obvious that she was the traitor, but with Saavik it wouldn't have been? I don't buy that. None of the main characters would be the traitor obviously, so that leaves the only guest character they fit in between, and that's either Saavik or Valeris.

It would have been Saavik making her fourth appearance in five movies. She was no "guest", she was part of the regular movie crew, and a hugely popular character. More movie appearances than Chapel. We would have been shocked by the revelation. But Saavik/Valeris was utterly convinced of her own logic, even if we don't quite buy it; what would have been needed was some kind of a farewell scene with Saavik, though. Her exit is so... abrupt.

The addition of the new character, Valeris, does wave a flag over her, and takes away much of the shock value. I've read the "final shooting script" and it's Saavik throughout. They changed very little when switching characters, and some of the jokes - call backs to things Saavik had witnessed/said in STs II, III and IV - are still there in the screened version.

 

[RandyS]

It wouldn't have made any sense if they used Saavik, because her motive would've been influenced by what happened to David in TSFS.

So, because David died she was part of a conspiracy...that had David's FATHER being framed and sent to jail for something he didn't do?! A father she KNEW suffered worse than she did over David?!

Agreed. This is exactly why I was glad it wasn't Saavik.

Besides, I liked Saavik, who cares about Valeris?

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

Not only was I surprised the first time, I was surprised the second and third times too! Of course there were some years in between but it seems I not only suck at deduction but I don't retain a lot of movie plot.

And.. every time I watch TUC (which is my favorite pre NuTrek) I am wondering "what IS the undiscovered country? Is it the future?" I'm pretty sure now that it is peace, not the future but it's taken me quite a few more viewings than 3 for this to stick in my head.

 

[Therin of Andor]

And.. every time I watch TUC (which is my favorite pre NuTrek) I am wondering "what IS the undiscovered country? Is it the future?" I'm pretty sure now that it is peace, not the future...

Nicholas Meyer originally wanted "The Undiscovered Country" to be his subtitle for ST II, and it would have referred to the Afterlife. In ST VI, they use "the Future" as the Undiscovered Country. IIRC, the Shakespearean interpretation is that the term refers to Death.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

OH WHAT! So it IS the future, not peace with the Klingons? I am really completely dim. I hope I manage to actually remember it. I like the future better.

That's very interesting that it could have been the Afterlife. "The Undiscovered Country" is a great name, so many things you could apply it to.

 

[James Tiberius Kirk]

That's very interesting that it could have been the Afterlife. "The Undiscovered Country" is a great name, so many things you could apply it to.

Yeah, the death/afterlife connotation is definitely what Meyer would have been going for originally with TWOK; the line is from Hamlet's "to be or not to be" soliloquy

"Who would Fardels bear,
To grunt and sweat under a weary life,
But that the dread of something after death,
The undiscovered Country, from whose bourn
No Traveller returns, Puzzles the will,
And makes us rather bear those ills we have,
Than fly to others that we know not of."

And I agree, it is a very easily reapplied and reinterpreted term.

 

[Therin of Andor]

So it IS the future, not peace with the Klingons? I am really completely dim.

It's both. And more. The expectation is that "the Future" will/may include peace between the UFP and the Klingons. For some, that is a fate worse than death.

 

[ToddKent]

Besides, I liked Saavik, who cares about Valeris?

That's the point. The revelation would have had more of an impact if the traitor was a character you knew and liked instead of a new character that you didn't care about.

The addition of the new character, Valeris, does wave a flag over her, and takes away much of the shock value. I've read the "final shooting script" and it's Saavik throughout. They changed very little when switching characters, and some of the jokes - call backs to things Saavik had witnessed/said in STs II, III and IV - are still there in the screened version.

Really? I didn't catch any of those. What were they?

 

[RyanKCR]

Besides, I liked Saavik, who cares about Valeris?

That's the point. The revelation would have had more of an impact if the traitor was a character you knew and liked instead of a new character that you didn't care about.

The addition of the new character, Valeris, does wave a flag over her, and takes away much of the shock value. I've read the "final shooting script" and it's Saavik throughout. They changed very little when switching characters, and some of the jokes - call backs to things Saavik had witnessed/said in STs II, III and IV - are still there in the screened version.

Really? I didn't catch any of those. What were they?

One was related to having the "new person" drive the ship out of space dock. Spock gave command to Saavik and Kirk had Valeris use impulse instead of thrusters, as regulations demanded.

 

[Therin of Andor]

One was related to having the "new person" drive the ship out of space dock. Spock gave command to Saavik and Kirk had Valeris use impulse instead of thrusters, as regulations demanded.

Yep. There was also a call-back to "You lied."/"I exaggerated." It becomes: "A lie?"/"A choice".

And several other bits.

 

[RyanKCR]

One was related to having the "new person" drive the ship out of space dock. Spock gave command to Saavik and Kirk had Valeris use impulse instead of thrusters, as regulations demanded.

Yep. There was also a call-back to "You lied."/"I exaggerated." It becomes: "A lie?"/"A choice".

And several other bits.

It that same bit when Valeris quoted regulations was similar to when Saavik quoted regulations and both times Spock reacted.