Was a Rick Berman a bad choice to run the Star Trek Franchise after Gene Roddenberry died?

[dupersuper]

I also think during most of the Berman-Trek years homosexuality on TV just wasn't a thing.

Ah, my life of watching too much TV comes in handy.

In addition to the aforementioned Soap, Brothers, All in the Family, Northern Exposure, Buffy, Ellen and Will and Grace, there were gay and/or trans guest/recurring characters in Barney Miller, Golden Girls, MASH, Night Court, WKRP, West Wing, Ally MacBeal, Boston Legal, LA Law, Picket Fences, Twin Peaks, Newsradio, Simpsons, Friends, Cheers, Frasier...

I'm very chill kind of person with Trek

As shown in your avatar.

 

[FormerLurker]

Agreed. The homophobes get their knickers in a twist about the sex, but it's the basic affection that really bothers them.

Just the opposite, IMO. People tend to dislike and fear that which is different. People tend to identify with that which is like them. That's why two guys just brushing their teeth together undermines the notion of homophobia so neatly: a straight guy watches that scene and thinks about the many ordinary domestic scenes where he and his wife brushed their teeth together. Or show a family with two moms eating breakfast together: juice being poured, waffles being plopped on plates, kids whining about having to go to school... just people living their lives and loving the people they share them with. Homophobia, like every other prejudice, requires ignorance and marginalization to survive.

Your response isn't the opposite of what I said, but rather the explanation for it. The homophobes are bothered BECAUSE the simple affection and ordinary lives stuff is so familiar, and so commonplace. They don't want to humanize homosexuals in this way, as it undermines their argument that "the Gay sex" is all that is important to gay people, and they know it.

 

[Omegaphallic]

By that logic, I could point to Nemesis being one of the worst box-office failures in history, and Enterprise's mediocre viewing figures and premature cancellation, and say those things speak for themselves. When you're dealing with a timespan that covers almost two decades and a considerable number of ups and downs in terms of the franchise's success in popularity, it gets very difficult to make any fast and hard proclamations about how much credit Berman deserves, or doesn't deserve.

Enterprise is extremely successful now on streaming apps.

 

[Oddish]

Your response isn't the opposite of what I said, but rather the explanation for it. The homophobes are bothered BECAUSE the simple affection and ordinary lives stuff is so familiar, and so commonplace. They don't want to humanize homosesexuals in this way, as it undermines their argument that "the Gay sex" is all that is important to gay people, and they know it.

It depends on which people we're talking about. Some enemies, after all, can be turned into friends. But you're right; the true, incorrigible enemies of gay people (regardless of motivation) will see humanizing them as the ultimate threat. That's why Lynn Johnson received death threats when she featured a gay teen in "For Better or For Worse".

Enterprise is extremely successful now on streaming apps.

Because it was, for the most part, a good show. It suffered from a slow start and franchise fatigue, and a few bad episodes. But had it gotten its fifth season, it would probably have gone the full seven, like its three predecessors.

 

[dupersuper]

It depends on which people we're talking about. Some enemies, after all, can be turned into friends. But you're right; the true, incorrigible enemies of gay people (regardless of motivation) will see humanizing them as the ultimate threat. That's why Lynn Johnson received death threats when she featured a gay teen in "For Better or For Worse".

My friends stepmother got his father to cancel their newspaper subscription over that. We mocked her (not to her face: we were kids).

 

[Oddish]

Then your set was more tolerant than ours. Among the teens I grew up amidst, homophobia was almost expected of you.

 

[Oddish]

I was watching some interviews on YouTube featuring Mr. Berman... they were kind of interesting. To his great credit, he was majorly involved in getting Patrick Stewart cast as Picard, a decision that not only made that series what it was but likely influenced the casting of TNG's contemporaries (casting a lesser known but extremely proficient actor in the main role). And, he was sadly right about the original person chosen to play Janeway (had she lasted longer, the series would have up a serious creek). But, there were some boneheaded decisions as well (that universally derided "someone gotta be the ensign" business reportedly came from him).

 

[Phily B]

No.

But he was a good choice to take over in the aftermath, but he never should have lasted so long. He was very conservative and wanted Trek to feel the same. Nothing shows this more than Voyager and Enterprise. He just tried to make them TNG lite, which is all he knew how to do. It's criminal he never handed the reigns over to someone younger with fresh ideas, several of the Trek writers went onto create some fantastic television they never could have done on Trek.

 

[The Wormhole]

Nothing shows this more than Voyager and Enterprise.

He actually wanted Enterprise to be something completely different, it was the Studio Suits above him who said No and forced him to make it TNG-Lite.

 

[BigDaveX]

He actually wanted Enterprise to be something completely different, it was the Studio Suits above him who said No and forced him to make it TNG-Lite.

True enough, UPN's role in Enterprise's (and Voyager's) flaws shouldn't be overlooked. The problem was that Berman's decisions seemed to exacerbate the problems that Paramount created, rather than mitigating them - having Enterprise follow the formula of TNG and Voyager so closely might not have been a problem had there not also been things like the Vulcans acting completely out of character, a truckload of continuity flubs, and an apparent main story arc that seemed like an afterthought.

Enterprise is extremely successful now on streaming apps.

Over a decade later, on a form of media that hadn't really yet gotten off the drawing board when Enterprise was cancelled. And really, who's to say how much of that success is down to Berman (and Braga), and how much of it is due to Coto and the latter writers?

 

[Paul755]

He actually wanted Enterprise to be something completely different, it was the Studio Suits above him who said No and forced him to make it TNG-Lite.

wasn’t the entire first season just supposed to be about building the Enterprise? I thought I read that somewhere.

 

[Oddish]

And the 5th season would have been about building the Federation.

 

[cooleddie74]

Or the beginning of the Earth-Romulan War in 2156.

 

[Oddish]

Either way, it would supposedly have had Shran as a member of the crew, a living Elizabeth, and something other than TATV as a finale.

 

[The Wormhole]

an apparent main story arc that seemed like an afterthought.

Assuming you're referring to the Temporal Cold War, it was an afterthought and was only there again at the behest of the Studio Suits who had no faith in the prequel concept and wanted some sort of future element there.

wasn’t the entire first season just supposed to be about building the Enterprise? I thought I read that somewhere.

Indeed it was.

something other than TATV as a finale.

TATV was always going to be the finale, and indeed had been written originally for the third season to be used in the event the show was cancelled then. Berman and Braga really thought that was the perfect way to end the show.

 

[BigDaveX]

Assuming you're referring to the Temporal Cold War, it was an afterthought and was only there again at the behest of the Studio Suits who had no faith in the prequel concept and wanted some sort of future element there.

Yeah, I seem to remember reading that it was something Braga thought up for Voyager, never got around to implementing, and then dusted off when UPN demanded some kind of time travel element.

Given that the Temporal Cold War was only mentioned in about a half-dozen episodes of the first season (and only very cursorily in most of those cases), it makes you wonder if Berman and/or Braga approached it with the same mentality that TNG did with the Q story arc - something they put heavy emphasis on in the pilot, but then only revisited once or twice per season.

 

[Takeru]

...things like the Vulcans acting completely out of character, ...

They didn't act out of character though, they just didn't act like Spock. And why would anyone expect that some vulcans out of billions in one series act like some other vulcans out of billions in another series.

Has anyone ever accused Picard of not acting like a human because he's not like anyone on TOS?

 

[BigDaveX]

They didn't act out of character though, they just didn't act like Spock. And why would anyone expect that some vulcans out of billions in one series act like some other vulcans out of billions in another series.

If it were just T'Pol who acted that way, then you could maybe just chalk it down to youthful arrogance that comes across badly thanks to cultural differences - in fact, that was the concept for Xon on Phase II. Heck, I could even accept Soval acting that way, since we've seen our fair share of crazy Starfleet ambassadors over the years, and the Vulcans doubtless have one or two as well.

But damn near every Vulcan we see in the first two seasons of Enterprise is incredibly arrogant, condescending, and full of themselves - it's even treated as a plot twist in "Fallen Hero" when V'Lar doesn't behave like this - seemingly for the sole purpose of making the human characters look better by contrast. And let's be honest, even if it hadn't involved the Vulcans, "humans teach arrogant aliens the error of their ways" getting to be a pretty tired trope even by the time Enterprise started airing.

Has anyone ever accused Picard of not acting like a human because he's not like anyone on TOS?

That was at least inferred to be the result of cultural changes that occurred between the TOS movie era and the start of TNG - just the less militaristic appearance of the Enterprise-D compared to Kirk's ship, and Worf's being an officer on the ship were inference enough of that.

If there had been some explanation or inference from the start of why the Vulcans were behaving so differently in the 22nd century, instead of Season 4's obvious (and yet still very good) fix-fic in the form of the Kir'Shara trilogy, it'd have been a lot less of an issue.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

Berman was right for TNG but should have been replaced in the Voyager/Ent era.

 

[suarezguy]

having Enterprise follow the formula of TNG and Voyager so closely might not have been a problem had there not also been things like the Vulcans acting completely out of character, a truckload of continuity flubs, and an apparent main story arc that seemed like an afterthought.

I do have to say a lot of fans were overly demanding about continuity adherence especially given that there were over 500 episodes.